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TMA UnderGround >> how much contact


3/11/05 10:57 AM
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juszczec
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Edited: 11-Mar-05
Member Since: 02/23/2003
Posts: 1488
 
Hi folks TMA gets trashed for tippity tappity sparring. And rightly so, you've gotta make contact. The question is, how much contact is enough to give you the benefits of what boxers/MT/kickboxers get without the detriments (KO's, concussions, cut up heads, broken noses/faces/ribs/hands etc) One of the goals of contact is the make sparring more realistic so you develop less bad habits. Its interesting how knowing you'll get hit in the face makes you not do stupid stuff. How much contact is enough for you to learn to "take a punch"? WTF is "taking a punch" anyway? To not fall apart emotionally when you get hit? Ok, I can do that. Looking for a balance. Mark
3/16/05 12:04 AM
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Seul
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Edited: 16-Mar-05
Member Since: 09/18/2002
Posts: 149
What most MMA practitioners don't understand is that you don't NEED any contact; to get the most benefit from your training without getting hurt, learn how to stop your punches and kicks several inches short of target. As for taking a punch, that is more of a mindset developed through intensive (think 1000 plus times a week ) practice of Kata. Whenever you really need your training in a self-defense or sport fighting situation, it will be easy to adjust to hitting real, moving opponents. Trust me.
3/16/05 8:07 AM
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juszczec
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Edited: 16-Mar-05 08:39 AM
Member Since: 02/23/2003
Posts: 1509
Seul "Trust me." Let's understand the stakes here. I'm talking about not only my survival, but that of my family or some innocent on the street. If I trust you and you are wrong then I could end up crippled or dead, my wife and son or that innocent I mentioned could end up raped and murdered. So, what is your experience such that I should trust you with all those things hanging in the balance? "What most MMA practitioners don't understand is that you don't NEED any contact;" I'll agree with you up to a point. You don't need contact to learn/practice the form of a technique and the proper body dynamics to get your weight behind it. But ya gotta hit something. Makiwara, focus mitts, heavy bag whatever. There's a difference between a technique landing in mid air and being stopped by a large object EVEN IF the large object falls over. "to get the most benefit from your training without getting hurt, learn how to stop your punches and kicks several inches short of target." Several inches? I disagree. That's fine for children and beginners. But I think everyone should work up to the level of control where you can fire off a technique at full speed/power, touch the target and either decide to go thru it or retract the technique without doing any damage. Start out with several inches of space but decrease the distance as skill develops. Eventually you should be able to do as I describe - throw a technique full blast and control it so it touches your training partner but doesn't go thru them. "As for taking a punch, that is more of a mindset developed through intensive (think 1000 plus times a week ) practice of Kata." I admit there can be a mental component to kata practice and it can be useful in keeping you mind free of distractions while sparring. But kata primarily serves as a record of ways you can move your body to hurt someone/prevent them from hurting you. If you practice Shotokan type kata, with long stances and exaggerated movements, then there is a conditioning aspect to it as well. But in order to develop the mindset to get you thru getting hit/hurt you've gotta get hit and have it hurt. My question is, how much hitting/hurting is needed? Mark
3/16/05 10:26 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 16-Mar-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 17210
I'm actually a fan of a little hit and a little hurt. I think the body needs the physical shock of a blow to reinforce the idea of not getting hit. It's probably possible to develop good defensive reflexes with no contact, but I think it takes an attitude of really noticing the shots you would have taken and realizing those were failures.But, most people's egos get in the way and they only focus on what they are delilvering and not on what they are receiving.

Pads, pads, and more pads can let you do some decent sparring with blows that jar, but don't really hurt. The only tough spot is the head. It's hard to take any blow to the nose without getting bloody, which few dojo owners wants to see. I haven't tried a helmet with face mask, but I'd like to try one sometime.
3/16/05 11:03 AM
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juszczec
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Edited: 16-Mar-05
Member Since: 02/23/2003
Posts: 1510
Willybone "I'm actually a fan of a little hit and a little hurt. I think the body needs the physical shock of a blow to reinforce the idea of not getting hit." Agreed. I think the kind of sparring me and my training partners do develops exactly what you describe. "It's probably possible to develop good defensive reflexes with no contact," Don't know, never tried. I do know the contact we use keeps us honest. "but I think it takes an attitude of really noticing the shots you would have taken and realizing those were failures.But, most people's egos get in the way and they only focus on what they are delilvering and not on what they are receiving." I can't speak for anyone else, but I consider it a failure if I get hit alot regardless of if what I throw lands or not. The thing is though, that isn't realistic. If you are attacked, you'll get hit. Hopefully you'll see it coming and take enough of the sting out of it so you won't get injured. But if you don't and it does land and it does hurt then the body will have some definite reactions you'll have to overcome. Can we rely on adrenaline to get us thru? Sure, to a certain degree. But we have no control over when/how much adrenaline gets dumped into the bloodstream. We can control how we train and the level of contact we use. I'm trying to figure out how much contact is necessary for the best sparring drill. "Pads, pads, and more pads can let you do some decent sparring with blows that jar, but don't really hurt." Hand and feet pads keep you from getting cut/cutting the other guy. Feet pads keep your toes from getting bashed too badly. Shin pads, I think, are more for the other guy than for the person wearing them. I've sparred guys who weren't wearing shin pads and didn't notice/care. I'm really bony, if I don't wear shin pads and kick alot my training partners' arms are a mess. Are you talking about TKD style body armor? I've worn a few. They all felt like I was wearing a garbage can and interfered with movement. Are there any out there that are relatively form fitting and don't get in the way? "The only tough spot is the head. It's hard to take any blow to the nose without getting bloody, which few dojo owners wants to see. I haven't tried a helmet with face mask, but I'd like to try one sometime." What about boxer's headgear? How much does that help. I've seen the headgear you mention, with the plastic face shield. I suspect I'd have the same problem with the shield fogging over like I did when I rode a motorcycle with a helmet. I'm one of those guys that sweats like a pig and generates alot of heat when I work out. I'd be inclined not to use that kind of head gear for 2 reasons. First, fogging over of the visor. Second, I know someone who sparred with a bunch of guys who wore catchers masks as head protection. The problem is, they got reactions (heads jerking around etc) by smacking the mask part which projected a few inches in front of the head. I'm afraid that could screw up judging the distance between your fist and his nose. Mark
3/16/05 1:06 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 16-Mar-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 17218
I do know the contact we use keeps us honest.
That's the thing. It's the difference between paintball and cap guns. There's less of the "I hit you/No you didn't".
I wasn't really thinking of the body armor, just hands, feet, shins, cup, and mouthguard. That keeps most of the bone on bone impact down. A boxer's headgear still leaves your nose open, I think.

I guess my simple answer would be "enough contact that it sucks to get hit, but not so much that injury is an every class occurrance.
3/16/05 2:56 PM
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beernight
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Edited: 16-Mar-05
Member Since: 10/24/2003
Posts: 2549
hitting is not the same as being hit.. contact is essential. As you grow, you will feel more and more comfortable with going harder. just be responsable.
3/16/05 3:36 PM
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Seul
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Edited: 16-Mar-05
Member Since: 09/18/2002
Posts: 150
I'm sorry, my first post was completely sarcastic. Least you think I'm retarded, I spar (hitting and getting hit) sometimes quite hard, sometimes with only a little power, but at least once a week. (this doesn't count my judo, in which we randori every nite) I wouldn't say you need to go hard very often, but if you never go hard at all you compromise your potential. so yeah, basically the consensus.... -Andrew
4/13/05 8:06 PM
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g0d0fd34th
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Edited: 13-Apr-05
Member Since: 10/10/2002
Posts: 15
The difference between hitting hard and hitting soft while sparring is that going hard, you keep your overall senses sharp, you know that you have to keep your hands up and use your defense to the max. On the other hand, sparring lightly can let you practice with using your technice, but if that's all you do then you might start getting used to it too much. That doesn't mean going all out and trying to kill each other. You can save that for a real fight you might encounter.

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