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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> Prison Guard Beating on UG


3/26/05 8:32 PM
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P
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Edited: 26-Mar-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 271
 
Check out the video and attached thread titled "Prison Guard Beating" on the UG. The video unfortunately does not include any of the pre-contact moments or the initial 'big bang' but it bears viewing and the accompanying comments merit a read "BJJ would have saved him...", and other 'armchair QB' comments that permeate the martial arts. I would be interested in an intelligent thread on it in this forum. Your thoughts? P.
3/27/05 4:12 AM
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Adam LaClair
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Edited: 15-Apr-05 04:32 PM
Member Since: 03/23/2002
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Thanks for pointing this post out, Phil.  Here is a direct link to save people time in searching for it:
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=572968&FID=1&pc=103

As some here know, I am a PDR coach, but also an avid submission grappler and BJJ practitioner/instructor.  What I find extremely ironic were these two statements:
"If the guard knew BJJ he would have been able to protect himself and probably take out the attacker."
"On the ground, he had no clue as to how to protect himself, obviously he's not a BJJ student."

Here, I will attempt to analyze and break the fight down, using BOTH my "BJJ filter," combined with my "PDR filter." I've watched the fight about 30 times or more, at both normal and 1/2 speeds.

1. The guard is seemingly taken by surprise, and gets hit.  His response is classic flinch-response, raising his arms and trying to protect his head.

2. Although still taking punches, the guard survives the "ambush" moment and initiates a grappling control, attempting to pin his assailant's arms to his own sides.  However, he gets hit in the side of the head (perhaps the temple - hard to tell) and drops to his knees.

3. Rising back to his feet, he continues his efforts to achieve control and manages to tie up one of his assailant's arms and drive him backwards.  However, as the other man turns and pivots, the guard loses his footing and falls to the ground, facing up.

4. It appears to me that the guard then brings his knees to his chest.  This might simply be a fetal position response, but it makes more sense to me that it is the reflexive act of a BJJ stylist, which would then be followed up by an effort to pull "Guard position" (legs around torso).  Before the officer can do anything though, he gets hit once again which forces him onto his right side. 

Now HERE is the part I really find to be the telltale sign that our guard may in fact already be a "BJJ" stylist:

5. Grabbing for the assailant's head, the officer gets to his knees while simultaneously off-balancing the man slightly toward the corner of the doorway.

6. He then stands back up onto one leg with the opposite knee still down, while achieving what we in BJJ refer to as "head and arm control."  The assailant pushes forward, driving the guard's back to the wall.  The guard seems momentarily braced against the wall, then appears to SIT DOWN and attempt to get his left leg underneath and around his opponent, once again seeking the classic BJJ "guard" position. It clearly looks like he gets his leg between the two legs of the assailant, which is "half-guard."

7. Failing to achieve the desired positional control, the officer looks like he may be trying to setup a scissors-sweep.  However just as he begins to insert his right shin into position, he loses control of the assailant's right arm, and the ensuing punch not only stifles his technique, but dazes him and results in him taking several powerful blows to his head while flat on his own back.

8. In another clear and classic BJJ tactic, the officer then attempts to trap the arm that is raining down punches and apply a Kimura submission (bent-arm shoulder lock).  Lacking the appropriate setup and distance control however, this move also fails - resulting in the officer sustaining considerably MORE punishment to the face and head. 

9. Finally, the officer turns away (protective response), gets to his knees and reaches for his spray canister.  Even this meets with failure though, as he continues to take punishment, seems disoriented and wobbly on his feet, and hyperfocuses on using the spray.  When that fails, he resorts to just trying to push away the danger.  As backup arrives, we see him completely at the (lack of) mercy of his assailant, who is STILL successfully punching him over and over again.

While some may argue that BJJ would have been the officer's answer to this attack, I submit that it appears that the officer in fact DID attempt to use BJJ on his assailant.  While a certain degree of instinctual grabbing could be coincidentally similar to certain BJJ moves, I can clearly see a series of movements that imply a stylist (BJJ) strategy at work.  My assumption here would be that this person trains what we call "sport BJJ," where training rarely to never involves defending against strikes while you are grappling.  (This is what the overwhelming majority of BJJ schools teach exclusively).

I'll leave this for now, and let someone else pipe in before I add in my other thoughts.

Adam

3/27/05 8:33 AM
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JMullings
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Edited: 27-Mar-05
Member Since: 01/31/2002
Posts: 323
Hmmm. thats one tough Guard, regardless of his skills and training. It took a strong will to survive to stand in there and not give up. I look at this video as a training tool and not a judgement as to "what he could have or should have done".....X.Y,Z'ing this or "if he does this than you should do that" stuff is inaapropriate. My observations: Accept, Get Challenged and Never stop thinking.... - He accepted he was in the middle of a shit storm. The Guard never gave up. He kept moving and attempting to fight back, giving the BG a tougher time of hitting and landing a finishing shot. Never stop thinking. The Guard transitioned from strategy to strategy. When something wasnt working he then tried another. Tie up, to attempted takedown, to pepper spray, etc... My take away lesson here is that he survived the attack. As Phil pointed out, we didnt get to see what happened before and what led up to the situation. Quite possibly the most important part of this. If you have never fought w/o gloves on and let someone truly get in that first sucker punch and off balance you physically and emotionally...then armchairing QB here is proof of that. An attempt to say BJJ, Grappling or some other combat system would be iron clad here and "impossible to beat" would be for the 15 year olds on the UG. Forget High Gear and or gloves...let a buddy bitch slap the shit out of you and thenm try and recover....and make sure you both are truly fighting for your life in the drill. INteresting outcomes and more respect for this Guards ability to survive. Joe -
3/30/05 10:36 PM
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Adam LaClair
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Edited: 30-Mar-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 2381
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Anyone else going to contribute?
4/1/05 12:26 AM
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Edited: 01-Apr-05
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Adam, thanks for your breakdown, made for an interesting re-view. Joe, I agree completely. It's impossible to judge the initial recovery without seeing the precontact and 'big bang' moment. If I start a fight with Rickson Gracie by smashing his head into the wall and kneeing him in the balls, the fight may look something like what we saw... and he might be a bit better than me ;-) I found it interesting that many people in the UG thread spoke about how they would never have been caught unprepared, unaware, etc. It's the 'Superman' mindset, and a major reason why most 'combative systems' are never tested. Thank God for Tony and 'Murphy proofing'. Bottom line, the cop never quit fighting, he's a warrior. The BG was a 3%er and was going for it. It's a testament to the importance of training and having a high level of PDR. P.
4/10/05 12:22 AM
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Adam LaClair
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Edited: 15-Apr-05 04:34 PM
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I'm 100% in agreement.  Phil, your last statement especially really speaks to a message that I've always come away from a PDR training session with:  Training is important, but even MORE important is what most martial art styles under-emphasize - Having a high level of personal defense READINESS. 

Like your Rickson example, anyone could beat up ANY world class fighter as long as they can catch them off guard and inflict sudden damage.

The guard in the video was definitely in possession of a warrior's heart, and (whether he knew it or not) used the 3 golden rules from Blauer Tactical:
1. He accepted that he was in a fight
2. He obviously got challenged and never gave up
3. He never stopped thinking, in that he kept trying and trying

I'd have really liked to have seen the 15-30 seconds preceding that fight, but I think it's safe to state that trying to say "this" move would have worked or "that" fighting style would have protected him, wouldn't have been a real answer.  He survived the fight (Priority #1), and hopefully he went back and re-viewed what led up to it, and how he can improve his PDR in the future.

Adam

4/15/05 3:19 AM
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Adam LaClair
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Edited: 15-Apr-05 04:37 PM
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 2412
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The Jackyl -

Why do you feel he showed little knowledge of BJJ? 

I don't believe he showed much EFFECTIVENESS with BJJ, but effectiveness and knowledge are two very different things.  From my perspective, he looked just like some of my BJJ blue belt students did the first several times they took my MMA and/or self-defense classes.  Despite winning multiple trophies in BJJ & grappling competitions, they showed a similar lack of apparent coordination and effectiveness.  So, I reemphasize that I can CLEARLY see a BJJ strategy at work - but sport BJJ is not always the final answer.

Also, he didn't even reach for the pepper spray until quite a ways into the altercation.  Nor did he seem to try to strike back.  He simply "grappled" his assailant.

One of the greatest things I have learned from Tony Blauer is the 3-dimensional model for fighting.  One of those dimensions is the "emotional" impact.  When you are in a real fight where there is no referee and no rules, even the best fighter can be "afraid" whether consciously or subconciously, and whether or not they want to admit it.  It has been theorized by Tony, and scientifically documented elsewhere, that such a situation can cause a physical reaction whereby the muscle memory skills are completely bypassed in the brain.  In Blauer Tactical terminology, we call these "primal" reactions; you referred to it as "fighting on instinct."  Regardless of what you call it, when this happens, your physical skills are often (and obviously) very inhibited.  Clean, crisp technique - even in very well trained fighters - can go right out the window, along with all sense of timing.  This is without even taking a hard shot!! 

The challenge here would be to deliberatly put yourself into this type of scenario, and videotape it.  If a BJJ practitioner tries to use pure sport grappling against a training partner who duplicates the attacks in the video, I firmly believe that you will see your actions look an awful lot like the prison guard's movements!  I for one have done this on more than one occasion, as have several of my students as I mentioned.  If you don't believe me, then by all means don't take my word for it: GO TRY IT for yourself!!  The proof is in the pudding - or in this case, the videotape. ;-)

Adam

4/17/05 5:32 AM
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melvinferd
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Edited: 17-Apr-05
Member Since: 05/07/2004
Posts: 90
JJ trained or not, what I see is someone who needs to do more scenario training. Having said that, all credit to the guy for taking that number of shots and surviving. If you took an untrained person and a sport-only trained jj blue belt and put them under the same high stress scenario, I would be very surprised if they looked much different.
4/26/05 4:43 PM
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Marc McLellan
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Edited: 26-Apr-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 0
This may be all over the place but may make a littl sense. I work in a Federal Prison. In a prison enviroment, depending on the institution, inmates do not have much to lose. They are locked down 24 hours a day and have plenty of time to watch you. Respect is the number one issue for deaths in prison. Prison is an easy place for staff to become complacent. Personally, although it has been years, I have corasponded with Mr. Blauer and learned much. The video is really easy to critisize. I am not sure why it was necessary to move an inmate with a one to one ratio but like I stated it is easy to get complacent. This inmate could have broken down the officers defenses over weeks/months/years. Or he could be making his bones. In reality, he needed to jam the inmate (i.e. SPEAR), hit his body alarm, then fight to the best of his ability. I don't know what to say about jiu jitsu but other inmates tend to get involved with fighting staff. once they get you down they want to kick you in the face. The officer in the video was extremely lucky. Just my two cents. Marc

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