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TMA UnderGround >> SCA vs Arnis


4/9/05 8:00 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 09-Apr-05
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 61
 
Okay, I am in the SCA and for those who dont know, its a medevil recreation group. As tough as that sounds(probably not) the main basis of the SCA is fighting, we put on body armor: our elbows, knees kidneys, throat and groin, are protected, also a full metal helms of 16 gauge steel to protect our head. We fight with rattan sticks, about 1 inch thick and 30 inches long. And we fight 100%. I had an Arnis school come give a demonstration at my school today and it seemed a majority of their stick fighting, the striking not the grappling, would not work against an attacker the way they protrayed it. Now before I sound like I am bashing these guys, or the art, I have a pretty small understanding of Arnis and I would like to know more about it. So I asked one of them if they ever did any sparing sessions, so I could check them out and see how my SCA stick fighting could compare to theirs. He informed me that they dont do any live sparing because of the chance for injury. Isn't it important to try the techniques at full speed against full resistance in order to know if they work or not? Has anyone ever seen both styles, the SCA and the Arnis, and have any input? I just thought it was odd that they would show they taught realistic fighting but dont actually do any live sparing.
4/10/05 6:15 AM
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Ninja Vanish!
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Edited: 10-Apr-05 06:32 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 37
FMA where they don't do any live sparring sounds wierd to me. Usually Arnis, Escrima, etc. focus less on the tradition and cosmetics of martial arts and more on the actual use of techniques. At least from what I've experienced. I haven't really seen SCA go up against anything but SCA in my limited exposure. I was under the impression that you guys weren't so much a style of stick fighting, but used the sticks to recreate euro blade fighting? Kind of like ARMA? Anyway, check out www.dogbrothers.com if you're looking for some fma based full contact stick fighting, etc.
4/11/05 5:14 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 11-Apr-05
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 62
I felt it was weird also, some of their techniques looked pretty usefull, though some didn't, and this is just an outsiders opinion. Also, the SCA is a recreation of medevil sword fighting but it isn't exactly the most accurate. ARMAS I beleive uses live steel and fights at a much slower pace, and is a more accurate historical club. In the SCA we are simulating swords with the rattan sticks but IMO it is closer to stick fighting (minus the grappling)than swordfighting. I have seen the dogbrothers site and they are pretty badass, though I am in Colorado and they dont have anything around here. (sux) I had never heard of the SCA before a kid in my dorm introduced me to it, so I am not supprised most people havent had much contact into it, but I was hoping someone had some experience in it and could give me some opinions. I am going go back to this school to see what they offer, I am pretty interested.
4/11/05 5:39 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 11-Apr-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 17524
I'm at a modern arnis school right now. We use two different formats for sparring. One involves wearing the full WEKAF armor and using rattan sticks. The other uses just a helmet and gloves, but padded sticks.
I prefer the 2nd.
4/12/05 5:26 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 12-Apr-05
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 64
willybone have you ever seen anyone from the SCA?
4/13/05 9:57 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 13-Apr-05 01:40 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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There was a group of guys who practiced at Union Square every week, and I saw them a number of times, but I'm not entirely sure if they were SCA. They'd duel, and when someone got whacked somewhere, they'd have someone judge how that injury would affect the strikee. So, some guy takes a hit to the leg, and they'd make him get on one knee; or a hit to arm and he couldn't use that arm anymore.
I thought it was kinda interesting, but too much of that "I hit you / No you didn't" stuff.

Ideally, I'd want to spar with padded sticks a little heavier than we use now and maybe just some face protection. Heavy enough to hurt, but not as much blood and breakage as unpadded rattan seems to invite.
4/13/05 2:05 PM
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Robkali
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Edited: 13-Apr-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 922
David, Have you checked out the dogbrothers site yet? I too used to fight in the SCA (many years ago)... I think you'll find that the Filipino arts are far more realistic & applicable than anything you'll learn in the SCA. Once the armour comes off (all of it) you learn to really respect the weapon. Not to mention there is a whole lot more than just "stick-fighting"... Now, that being said - there are (unfortunately) FMA "mcdojos" around. These ar usually people who have picked up some stuff at seminars or - and this is by far worse_ "learned" from video tape. {this is not to say that video is not a helpful tool to learn with - but you must have hands on training to truly understand these arts). good luck in your search Rob
4/15/05 3:34 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 15-Apr-05
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 66
willybone, that sounds pretty much like the SCA. The judgeing that we use is if you get hit, you gennerally feel it and, like you said, a leg hit you have to fight from your knees, an arm hit, you cant use the arm. And I could see how padding would help, my arm got all bloodied up yesterday at practice. Also, what kind of helmet do you use? Rob, I have checked out the dogbrothers site, but I dont beleive they do anything in Colorado, at least I couldnt find anything. Though I have gotten a few ideas from them. I am lucky enough to be around a group of people in the SCA that come from a fighting backgrounds, so I have been working out ways to incorporate diffrent grappling techniques so it is not just fighting around a sheild. More realistic fighting that would have occured in the middle ages. Saftey is a big factor so I am trying to find a way to keep injuries from happening. I wish there were more places I could check out similar to the dogbrothers type fighting.
4/15/05 5:10 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 15-Apr-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 17639
I think they're special helmets, made for arnis.

This is the full armor setup here:


You don't see them, but they're wearing forearm pads too.
Note the size of the sticks, too. Pretty thin.

I'll be competing in this format on May 1st.
I don't think it's the most realistic format possible, and they do often degenerate into wild whipping matches, but it's a blast anyway.
4/20/05 3:22 PM
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Davidkamau
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Edited: 20-Apr-05
Member Since: 10/17/2004
Posts: 68
Just curious, how do you judge points?
4/20/05 5:39 PM
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Willybone
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Edited: 20-Apr-05
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Just curious, how do you judge points?
10 point "must" system. 3 rounds of a minute each. Each time you lose your stick, either through an accident or disarm, you get one point deducted; 3 times is an automatic loss.
Judges should be looking for a variety of well-placed strikes and defensive manuevers.
7/9/06 10:23 AM
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khd29
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Edited: 09-Jul-06
Member Since: 02/18/2003
Posts: 4132
ttt
6/7/07 2:01 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 07-Jun-07
Member Since: 09/01/2004
Posts: 2172
LOL i actually worked out with some tough SCA guys in college. this is a little blast freom the past for me!
6/21/07 8:33 PM
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carl hoss
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Edited: 21-Jun-07
Member Since: 09/19/2005
Posts: 1
ttt
6/22/07 10:11 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 22-Jun-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 27873
I'll be competing in this format on May 1st.
Now that someone's resurrected this thread...
I lost that tourney badly. I barely touched my opponent. But, I learned a lot from watching it on tape, as well as watching all the other matches.
The next time I entered a tourney, I kept my left hand much more active, restraining his stick hand and shoving him off balance. I used lateral movement to get out of his path and into his blind spots. And I had much better conditioning this time. I won the match and took first place (out of only 2 people) for my division.

That's the only competitive match I've ever won in any art. I've lost in judo, BJJ, and TKD. God bless Arnis.
9/22/07 8:58 AM
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JCJ
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Edited: 22-Sep-07 09:02 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 524
never done SCA, but sounds like fun. at my old FMA club, we sparred in various ways -- sometimes crazy ones! while preparing for and competing in WEKAF tournaments in 1996 and 1997, we sparred with regular rattan sticks! we didn't know before 1996 that WEKAF tournaments used thin and light sticks. as a result, during training we got a ton of bruises and welts, but then we did well at the tournamanents :) since we had the equipment, we also did sparring with just the helmet and gloves, still using regular rattan sticks. then our instructor had us spar with just gloves & no head shots, and lastly, no armor at all + no head shots. however all other strikes were ok, including to the hand (which is very typical of FMA). shit that hurt, but it taught us alot about holding onto your weapon when your hand is hit, and how to AVOID getting hit in the first place! although the WEKAF stuff was fun, in reality, you'd never blindly charge in on someone thats holding a weapon & knows what they're doing. BTW: we weren't a Dog Brothers school or anything, just people training under a traditional and very excellent instructor.

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