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2/29/08 6:02 PM
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ReneH
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Edited: 29-Feb-08
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Reading the bible is the same as reading any fairy tale book, except that the bible has roots of forgery and countless examples of plagiarisms. Anyone that seeks to find deep religious meaning in that book really needs to have their head examined. Seriously. Time and again, historians have validated the existence of the bible as a compilation of other cultures works, is rife with forgeries, and whatever was "borrowed" was rebranded under the banner of xtianity. Our society cannot go forword with such a high number of delusional people. Why psychology is not concerned about this mass delusion in people, and seek to get them some form of therapy, is beyond me.
4/29/08 10:49 PM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Edited: Apr 29 2008 12:00A
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FudoMyoo - 

One explenation that I have seen, to why religions can develop in groups of people, comes from evolutionary psychologists, who argue along the lines that societies that developes religious rules and codifies moral behaviour will have an evolutionary advantage to other societies who doesn´t.


then you also have various philosophical arguments for a belief in a deity, like:



  • Anselm´s Ontological argument

  • The cosmological argument

  • The teleological argument

  • the argument from religious experience

  • The moral argument

All of the above arguments has of course been discussed at length and counterarguments exist to all of them, as it exists counterarguments to those counters etc etc


If you would like to read a nice introduction to it, you could start here:


http://eblaforum.org/main/viewtopic.php?t=471



Of course none of those arguments are valid--no matter how much they are debated back and forth-- since they presuppose the existance of God.

Religion--particularly Judaism, Christianity and Islam--have done nothing but keep humanity from moving forward. They are the products of an ignorant and savage time and should be discarded.

Frankly relying on religion is the worst form of cowardice. One would hope that an adult would be able to face the realities of death and loss without the need to believe in some magical man in the sky.
5/2/08 9:22 PM
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Gorgeous
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 How is Christianity even possible?

 


People need the phenomenon of a Messiah ressurrected to explain their current day experiences.


end thread :)

5/2/08 10:11 PM
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IndianaBrandon
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"People need the phenomenon of a Messiah ressurrected to explain their current day experiences."

People need the Messiah to take away their sins and give them a new life in Him. If Christianity is not true it sure has tricked a lot of people into living better, cleaner, more moral lives.
5/3/08 10:04 PM
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Gorgeous
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Tricked? People aren't stupid.


A more interesting question is why do people prefer to live that way?

5/4/08 2:00 AM
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IndianaBrandon
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"A more interesting question is why do people prefer to live that way?"

When you meet the Lord personally it changes your outlooks. You strive day in and day out to become just a little more like Him. The change starts inwardly, and slowly. A bad word you say all the time slips out, immediately the Holy Ghost convicts you of the sin and you repent on the spot. Your thoughts become higher, deeper. You start not enjoying tv shows you used to like, you now prefer to read His Word in your spare time. As the Holy Spirit guides you into more and more truth. Its a relationship with a Living God. And it changes people for the better. It can turn sport sex with the wife, into a beautiful lovemaking session. Instead of getting up angry in the morning, you will be happy, take a walk and sing beautiful hymns to the Lord. Morning prayer will focus your mind like a lazer for the day ahead. Christianity has created utopian societies like America before it became corrupted. Break out your Bible and read the Gospel of John, give this walk a few days and see if God doesnt overflow your life with blessings.
5/18/08 7:54 PM
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FLMikeATT
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marko stefanac - this thread is stupid, Just wait till you die and on your way to hell you can argue all you want about how hell doesnt exist, and how stupid god is. as for me, I will take my chances with faith.
Wow. I didn't think anyone still believes Pascal's Wager is a good argument for faith in the Abrahamic god.

Essentially, the root of your 'belief' is fear, which is not true belief because without the threat of eternal suffering in hell, there is no reason for your belief.

What kind of all knowing, all powerful, benevolent God needs praise? Also, an all knowing, all powerful God who condemns people who don't believe in him and praise him, is a God not worth praising in the first place. He is merely a tyrant who condemns people for thought crimes.
6/23/08 7:55 AM
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WizzleTeatsv2
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Exactly. When I tell religious people I am an atheist, most of them react pretty negatively, or they try to convince me that I am wrong, because, well, God exists. They're sure of it. They can't prove it, of course--but that's why they call it "faith"

And maybe he does, to them. Whatever, more power to them. If they wish to remain ignorant in an age where limitless information is at their fingertips, I certianly will not change their minds regarding their God fantasy.

To me reliance on most religions---particularly Christianity--to justify one's actions shows a fundamental inability to live honestly (i.e., without illusions and self-deception) and with true integrity (being moral for morality's sake, instead of doing so out of fear of punishment).

When I really want to tie an obnoxioulsy religious person's mind in a knot I tell them I'm a Buddhist atheist and watch the smoke start to come out of their ears.
8/6/08 1:02 PM
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770mdm
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 Christianity happened because it made sense at the time.  I feel it was a conglomerate of ideals that could put a person into the world with a connection to G-d while being able to opperate under any kingship because all of its ideals were internal.  No sacrifices, No Kosher food, No Teffilin, No 3 times a day prayer with a 10 men minion etc.  It was a universalistic idea that beat the snot out of Roman and Greek Gods.  Since Jewish ideals had always been in the hands of the people and it was the people who were holding onto those ideals and it was one in particular "Jesus" that stood as a challange to authority, which propelled people to act against tyrannical dictatorships while at the same time getting people in touch with their humanity is a tough job but in those days it would get you killed.  So I think the Priests with held biblical teachings to save people from themselves.  But what happened was with all people in power, they want more and they got it and they did what they did.  One should seperate those sincere folk who believe from those who want to control.  Yes they both can be religious or not.  What troubles we have distinguishing the good from false nostalgia. 
8/10/08 11:53 PM
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jcblass
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Biblical Scholars have come to vastly different conclusions when they actually study the ancient texts....
8/12/08 10:05 AM
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770mdm
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So.  Don't you have an oppinion of your own?  The view is alwasy different looking from the outside in.

7/21/09 3:39 PM
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Atecexa
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"God promotes genocide, and the brutal murder of women and children, fun fun fun, (deutoronomy 2 and 3) (Joshua 6:20) Here not only the murder of defencless men, women and children who are in their homes, but all their animals too... this is better than grand theft auto! But apperanetly God loves money, (Joshua 6:24) and the smell of burning flesh (Leviticus 1-14)"

You grab a couple of examples where a completely wicked race were wiped out. God did not tell the Israelites to go into all the world and kill everyone who was not a Jew. He did on a couple of isolated instances tell some Israelites to kill an entire race because they were so wicked. Unlike the Koran which does clearly state that all infidel are to be killed.
7/21/09 3:48 PM
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770mdm
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Atecexa - "God promotes genocide, and the brutal murder of women and children, fun fun fun, (deutoronomy 2 and 3) (Joshua 6:20) Here not only the murder of defencless men, women and children who are in their homes, but all their animals too... this is better than grand theft auto! But apperanetly God loves money, (Joshua 6:24) and the smell of burning flesh (Leviticus 1-14)"

You grab a couple of examples where a completely wicked race were wiped out. God did not tell the Israelites to go into all the world and kill everyone who was not a Jew. He did on a couple of isolated instances tell some Israelites to kill an entire race because they were so wicked. Unlike the Koran which does clearly state that all infidel are to be killed.
 
These instances were only upon settling the Land of Israel and then defending it.  There are no instructions like these that are meant to go global.
7/21/09 3:51 PM
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Atecexa
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I'm still waiting for the example of a biblical contradiction.

So do you think it is possible to be a good person without Christ and his forgiveness?
7/22/09 12:28 PM
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770mdm
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Me?  Yup.  I'm Jewish. 
Biblical contradictions are more probably due to poor understanding or interpretations.  Religion doesn't seem to produce scholars only, they have their share of whackos bent on forcing issues with force.   

7/27/09 7:09 PM
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strangejosh
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Edited: 07/27/09 7:12 PM
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The Bible is utter ridiculousness. Full of contradictions. How anyone takes religion seriously baffles me. 1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31 God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6 2. God dwells in chosen temples 2 Chron 7:12,16 God dwells not in temples Acts 7:48 3. God dwells in light Tim 6:16 God dwells in darkness 1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2 4. God is seen and heard Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/ Ex 24:9-11 God is invisible and cannot be heard John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16 5. God is tired and rests Ex 31:17 God is never tired and never rests Is 40:28 6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21 God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8 7. God knows the hearts of men Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3 God tries men to find out what is in their heart Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12 8. God is all powerful Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26 God is not all powerful Judg 1:19
7/27/09 7:12 PM
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strangejosh
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770mdm - Me?  Yup.  I'm Jewish. 
Biblical contradictions are more probably due to poor understanding or interpretations.  Religion doesn't seem to produce scholars only, they have their share of whackos bent on forcing issues with force.   


So we're are supposed to take Mary's virgin birth and Jesus's resurrection literally, but interpret other things differently. lol. What?

Utter nonsense. Here's an idea oh so powerful god, why not make it simple and say what you mean? I guess that's too advanced for an omnipotent being that want's talking monkey's to worship him. lol.
1/1/10 7:15 AM
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Bonez90
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From what I understand, The Bible is a translation of old ass documents with missing parts, translated by the people who could have mistranslated it. However, the way I see it, rather than looking at the specific details of The Bible, I take away the big, general messages which include, love, peace, hope, and faith. The most crucial part of Christianity is to take Jesus Christ, the God, as our savior and develop absolute faith.
Now, the history tells us the violent actions performed by the Church, but like Gandhi said, "I like Chrisitainity, I just don't like your Christians." Those people were not practicing the teachings of Jesus Christ, or The Bible.
What God believed to be very important was freewill and it's up to us to be faithful or not.
To answer your question of why we, by we, I mean Christians, allow our lives to be influenced by the religion, personally, it's because it makes my life way joyful. Call me crazy, but being faithful to God allows me to be optimistic of difficult situations because I have persoanlly experienced miracles, which I believe were God's work. I'm not saying "oh I dont really have to try because God's going to take care of it." No I try my hardest at anything I do, but I know whatever the outcome may be, it's God's will. I guess compairson can be made to Gottfried Leibniz's philosophical optimism, which Voltaire mocked, but not that extreme. To reword it, I see a half full glass of water, rather than half empty.
What comes down to is your own opinion and faith. I hope none of you guys are ignorant enough to bash other people's beliefs just because you dont agree with it.
/rant
1/1/10 7:26 AM
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Bonez90
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Edited: 01/01/10 7:28 AM
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Orishas - historically speaking, christianity wasnt even a religion until the council of nicaea held by constantine who converted to christianity in order to have a unifying force that would help him combat the zoroastrians to the east.as for god, many, very rational, philosophers believed in god...such as Descartes, Avicenna, Spinoza, Berkeley etc.

Even guys like Voltaire, who mocked and hated all established religions believed in God. The only difference was he was a Deist. "If God did not exist, it would be important to invent him"Fyodor Doestovsky(sp) also was a Christian Existentialist, his beliefs were similiar to that of Nietzsche's strong view on free will; however, to the contrary, Fyodor believed in God as well.
1/8/10 11:33 PM
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Seul
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I was thinking about this the other day:

supposing an unwed, teenage, jewish girl in ancient times let her hormones run away with her and slept with a sheepherder's son (or something), then got knocked up. She hides it from her parents for as long as she can (hoping for a miscarriage, or just being in denial), but eventually her parents find out.

When confronted (and perhaps threatened with being beaten to death, or something similar) by her angry father, she panics and blurts out "It's god's child, I've never had sex. You'll see!" and her dad is all like "you lying bitch, I'm going to hit you with my ring hand. If this is really god's child, lightning will strike that tree out in the yard!". Suppose (further suspending your disbelief) that by some random chance lightning actually does strike the tree (maybe this is so unlikely it would only happen once in all of human history), so her dad is convinced.

Then (to protect herself and the baby) she has to live her life pretending the baby is divine (including raising the baby to believe in her lies as well, effectively making it the baby's truth). Can you imagine the things that a persuasive and charismatic man might accomplish if he was able to act with complete certainty down to the core of his being that everything he did (and suffered through) was sanctioned by god?

Assuming something like this happened (or anything else sufficiently separate from the views generally held by christians), how cruel a joke on us would this have been? THink of how many people have died (or killed), been tortured (or done the torturing), how much suffering a teenage girl's desperate lie (in my admittedly highly unlikely hypothetical) could have caused. It would be inconceivably tragic and terrible if the ENORMOUS amount of suffering and hardship that religious strife has caused had anything less than 100% truth at its center.
1/10/10 9:50 AM
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Gorgeous
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 It's a good question.
1/13/10 12:36 PM
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NeckCranks
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I support this thread.
2/2/10 11:31 AM
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hordvitnir9
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EVILYOSHIDA - because if people ditch it.. westerners would have no culture to fall back on. it's really the core of western culture.


it may be western culture now but its really an eastern belief religion that took over europes original polytheistic religion and culture
3/23/10 1:02 PM
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uglee
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My genrail belieaf when it comes to relgion, is that human need to explian things. Relgion is the answer for the unanswerable. In the early days of human history it was the entire natraul world that needed explaining so belieaf syestems arose to meet this needs. As scieance has evolved so have our Gods. No longer do we explain disease or storms with, well the gods are mad. However as human beings we still have two distinct needs. One a is pupose greater then meer life itself. We don't see our selves as simply animals ,but better then. therefore we most have a greater pupose then just contiuation of the species. The second is death as a whole we refuse to accept that we will cease to exist this prospect is meerily to daunting for us to face. The abrahmic relgions do a marvioulus job of relieveing us of this fear and of giving purpose to life. That in my opinion is way relgion conitunes to thrive when it really should not.
3/26/10 1:24 PM
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Martinez!
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Sityodtong Muay Thai, Trainer
Seul - I was thinking about this the other day:

supposing an unwed, teenage, jewish girl in ancient times let her hormones run away with her and slept with a sheepherder's son (or something), then got knocked up. She hides it from her parents for as long as she can (hoping for a miscarriage, or just being in denial), but eventually her parents find out.

When confronted (and perhaps threatened with being beaten to death, or something similar) by her angry father, she panics and blurts out "It's god's child, I've never had sex. You'll see!" and her dad is all like "you lying bitch, I'm going to hit you with my ring hand. If this is really god's child, lightning will strike that tree out in the yard!". Suppose (further suspending your disbelief) that by some random chance lightning actually does strike the tree (maybe this is so unlikely it would only happen once in all of human history), so her dad is convinced.

Then (to protect herself and the baby) she has to live her life pretending the baby is divine (including raising the baby to believe in her lies as well, effectively making it the baby's truth). Can you imagine the things that a persuasive and charismatic man might accomplish if he was able to act with complete certainty down to the core of his being that everything he did (and suffered through) was sanctioned by god?

Assuming something like this happened (or anything else sufficiently separate from the views generally held by christians), how cruel a joke on us would this have been? THink of how many people have died (or killed), been tortured (or done the torturing), how much suffering a teenage girl's desperate lie (in my admittedly highly unlikely hypothetical) could have caused. It would be inconceivably tragic and terrible if the ENORMOUS amount of suffering and hardship that religious strife has caused had anything less than 100% truth at its center.



Interesting question. Although I'd like to point out that no matter what Mary may have said about the conception of Jesus, it was pretty unlikely many people believed her.

MOst of his neighbors probably assumed he was illegitimate, althoguh possibly Joseph's actual son. That's probably why Jesus is never refered to as "son of Joseph", which would have been common at the time (i.e., Yeshua Ben Joseph). Instead he's called "of Nazareth" or, IIRC "son of Mary". Either way, Jesus probably would have grown up being called a bastard--either literally or figuratively.

Even if you discount the existance of a historical, non-divine rabbi named Jesus, that's an interesting subtext to a story about a man who is supposed to be the incarnation of God on Earth. It's not something that typically would have been thrown into a story about a Jewish messiah or prophet. Legitimacy and a link to the father's side of the family was a huge deal in Jewish culture, especially then.

Kind of casts Jesus in a whole new light. The (perceived) illegitimate son of a disgraced woman, who spent most of his time that we know of living outside of his society...preaching mostly to the poor, criminals, etc. And denying the legitimacy of the Jewish relgious heirachy.

Really, that's about as punk rock as it gets.

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