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PhilosophyGround >> morals on meat


5/13/05 2:38 PM
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ruthlesstoothles
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Edited: 13-May-05
Member Since: 09/23/2004
Posts: 249
 
i posted this on the holy ground too, but wanted to get a philosopher's side as well. what are your views on the treatment of our animals for meat production? if you don't know much or anything about it cheak out peta.org
5/14/05 9:18 PM
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FudoMyoo
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Edited: 14-May-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 12269
to get a good introduction to this issue, try reading Peter Singer.
5/15/05 8:50 AM
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Revolver of Reason
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Edited: 15-May-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 23521
I don't eat smart animals or human companions/pets. except possibly in survival situations, which have never happened to me. no octopii (surprisingly intelligent), no dolphin, no simians (ape shall not kill ape!), no parrots. this excludes self-defense, if a gorilla in the mist comes up and tries to kill me I'm shooting the fucker, I'd do the same to a person trying to kill me. But I won't eat either. no dogs, cats, human-tame mice (really, no mice period), etc. cows and the like, pigs, chickens, turkeys, sheep(mutton), etc. are all fine, we have bred them to be slaughtered and they ain't too bright. we are omnivorous animals who have to have animal protein to be healthy, or even to survive, since we eventually die without Vitamin B12, and the only sources we can absorb naturally are made of animal protein. that said, a lot of people would be healthier if they went lacto-ovo vegetarian.. then again, you can fuck up your diet no matter what you are eating, like vegans gorging on french fries fried in veggie oils, or nachos with salsa, instead of trying to get the assload of protein they need to work on getting from plants. eventually we will just mass clone brainless barnyard animals who can't feel anything because they were never alive.. but will still taste like chicken. we'll just let the regular turkeys, etc. loose into the wild to do their thing. most will die shortly to the consternation of vegans, some will survive, and we'll take molted skin and dropped feather samples when we need genetic diversity for clone turkeys. that will pretty much end the cruelty to animals part of the vegan movement.
5/15/05 4:59 PM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 15-May-05
Member Since: 06/13/2004
Posts: 436
Peter Singer as already mentioned represents the utilitarian viewpoint of the treatment of animals. Kant though animals wer there to do what we will with them.
5/15/05 8:12 PM
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FudoMyoo
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Edited: 15-May-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 12306

"we are omnivorous animals who have to have animal protein to be healthy, or even to survive, since we eventually die without Vitamin B12, and the only sources we can absorb naturally are made of animal protein. "

we don´t "have to have animal protein to be healty" or survive. we can eat vitamin supplements.

absorb naturally? what does that mean, can you absorb things unnaturally?

5/16/05 8:44 AM
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Indrek R.
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Edited: 16-May-05
Member Since: 07/04/2002
Posts: 455
I also suggest to read Tom Regans "The case for animal rights" - totally different arguments than Singers... but quite strong..
5/18/05 12:41 PM
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ruthlesstoothles
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Edited: 18-May-05
Member Since: 09/23/2004
Posts: 280
animal protein is a sure sorce of disease. the number one killer in the us is heart disease. high blood pressure, cholesterol, cloging of arteries are all linked to a diet high in meat. there are plenty of naturally occuring plant proteins that are easy to get, cheap, and high in other essential nutrients. so the "we need animal protein to survive" is totally bogus.
5/19/05 12:35 PM
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martial_shadow
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Edited: 19-May-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 5352
lol
5/26/05 3:22 PM
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BushHog
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Edited: 26-May-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 3220
Its pissed driped, rotted animal carcass. Are you fucking crazy eating that shit???
6/3/05 5:33 AM
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Revolver of Reason
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Edited: 03-Jun-05
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"we can eat vitamin supplements." where do you think the Vitamin B12 in your vitamin suppliments comes from?
6/5/05 6:12 AM
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Revolver of Reason
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Edited: 05-Jun-05
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"absorb naturally? what does that mean, can you absorb things unnaturally?" well, most Asian Indian religious vegans get their dose of VitB12 through trace amounts of cow shit and insect parts mixed in with their less-than-clean vegetable diet. I don't know how it can get much more natural than that. you can get your B12 that way if you want... but I have no theistic religion and I'm not about to adopt veganism as a secular one, so it's kosher for me to eat your sacred cow. pun intended. "so the "we need animal protein to survive" is totally bogus." you can believe whatever you want, broham. try arguing with any credible scientifically-trained nutritionist about whether animal protein is not the best, easiest to get, and most bioavailable source of protein for humans. if you want to grow at a maximal rate or do extreme physical activity, you can forget about getting enough protein if you're eating vegetable protein strickly from whole foods. there are vegans who do extreme physical activities.. and they are all wolfing down large amounts of heavily refined (by large food processing machines, not people) plant protein suppliments from multiple veggie sources to stay in the game. rice, soybean, millet, etc. etc. etc. some weird plants that even I have never heard of before. because they know if they don't, they are going to get completely run down in the long term. and you still can't get human bioavailable B12 from plants. and probably won't barring genetic engineering of plants, which most vegans aren't too thrilled about. I can just have a lean sirloin steak and a glass of milk (for long term slow-digesting proteins) after training and be done with it. or I can get some well-cooked venison my relatives have hunted and killed, if I want to dine au natural, no additives. one of the reasons I am very skeptical of veganism is that I have a semi-distant relative (who didn't hunt, other side of the family) who cycled between been a vegan and a lacto-vegetarian, and got in a motorcycle accident and was fairly fucked up. he stabilized, but he was barely healing at all, and still insisted on a vegan diet despite the fact it was obvious he wasn't getting enough stuff to heal from his diet. he wasn't eating fancy refined rice protein powder or anything, but he was eating his vegetables like a horse and it wasn't doing shit to help him heal. the doctors managed to convince him to start eating meat again, and there was significant improvement within a week. I could probably do with eating some more vegetables, but I think that illustrates the fact that meat can be a quite useful part of one's diet.
6/9/05 2:00 AM
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ruthlesstoothles
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Edited: 09-Jun-05
Member Since: 09/23/2004
Posts: 312
of course there are unhealthy vegans who eat badly, but the need for meat to get enough protein is just plain old fashioned ignorance. here's a fun fact for you... on cup of cooked soybeans, no processing involved other than boiling and salt, has 29 grams of solid protein in it. and boiled quinoa has about 20 with all the essential amino acids. and i don't know where you got that garbage about b-12. there's a ton of b vitamins in just about any unrefined grain like rye, hard winter wheat, oat grouts, etc. and these things including soy beans are cheap as hell, easy to cook and eat, not heavily processed.
6/9/05 10:24 AM
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martial_shadow
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Edited: 09-Jun-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 5475
But in eggs, you abosrb 97% of the protein, in chicken and fish, you are in the 80s and in red meat the high 70s. Of the 29 grams of protein in soybeans (assuming they behave like tofu) is at 52% or a mere 15 grams. On the other hand, I have my 32gram can of tuna which contains 26.5g of protein. I don't know the exact abosrobtion rate of this but we'll say a low 81%- 21.5 grams. Similar with eggs or meat.
6/28/05 3:11 PM
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Sun Wu Kung
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Edited: 28-Jun-05
Member Since: 02/21/2005
Posts: 40
I grew up on farms, and lived on a completely organic family run farm through much of my college years. I think that one answer for those meat eaters who are still concerned with animal rights and are disturbed by factory farms should spend time on a small operation farm and see what it really takes to care for a herd of cattle, or a flock of free range chickens. Cows aren't wild animals, they are completely domesticated and are dependent on man to care for them. I think it is a cool way to be involved in a process that doesn't harm animals, but does promote the healthy production of animal food products. Just thinking out loud and promoting the discourse.
6/29/05 12:53 PM
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Subadie
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Edited: 14-Jul-05 08:08 AM
Member Since: 10/09/2004
Posts: 148
You say you're hungry, well that's a shame. Of course, I can't say exactly who's to blame This town is crazy it's quite insane But I'll see it never happens again. I'm glad that we're meet 'coz you should be eating I can't stand to see you this way Life looks much grimmer if you've had no dinner So darling believe what I say I'll be your breakfast. I'll be your dinner. You won't get hungry. You won't get thinner. To see you starving, Is no damned good So darling, darling, I'll be your food. You queue for butter and old jam tarts To see you do this weighs heavy on my heart You can break that state monopoly And you can have all your meals for free Just call me and you can start. 'Coz there's no shortage in our hotel. We eat like porkers and drink like hell. So let's just sit in bed and talk, And you can drink a knife and fork, And bite bits and chew them well. Life is for living and love is for giving, And here is the scheme I propose. If you need groceries, dear, they're much closer than you might have first had supposed. I know it's bad dear, to say the least This bloody nonsense between the West and East. You shouldn't take it quite so hard You've got a butter mountain in your back yard Just call me and we can feast. And if you need me, girl I'm always there Just take my bones out, remove the hair And if you call out I'll catch you later I'll be waiting in your refrigerator Diced into neat little squares 'Coz the best thing for you is a gigantic stew It's the answer to all your despair Oh girl, don't try to be tender Just make with the blender I want you to know that I care (Jazz Butcher lyrics) This is a link to another thread on this topic. I posted my view there: http://mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=593726&FID=2
7/9/05 2:31 PM
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BushHog
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Edited: 09-Jul-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 3613
"i heard a good quote from someone on the og. 'ill stop eating animals when they stop eating each other'" So sort of just say fuck evolution eh??
7/13/05 3:18 PM
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FudoMyoo
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Edited: 13-Jul-05 06:34 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 12344

"you can believe whatever you want, broham."

Thanks, so can you.

"try arguing with any credible scientifically-trained nutritionist about whether animal protein is not the best, easiest to get, and most bioavailable source of protein for humans."

that is not even an argument.

best? why would B12 from a vegtarian source be worse then B12 from an animal source?

easiest to get? Is it hard to find vitamins in your part of the country?

"where do you think the Vitamin B12 in your vitamin suppliments comes from?"

It exists 100% vegetarian B12 supplements. I did my research and happen to eat them myself. So there.

"rice, soybean, millet, etc. etc. etc. some weird plants that even I have never heard of before."

yeah, rice and soybeans are really weird plants..


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