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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> Protective vs. Primal


7/29/02 2:54 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 29-Jul-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
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Hello All On another thread the three types of SPEAR was mentioned. I am learning about the tactical SPEAR. The other two were the Protective and the Primal. Now I know what those words mean in the dictionary, and I know how I would use those words in a sentence, but I think I'm missing some nuance here. Could someone elaborate on these please? I want to be sure I understand the differences, and not make assumptions. :-) Thanks in advance. Peace, Chuck
7/29/02 4:23 PM
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temp152885
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Edited: 29-Jul-02
Member Since: 31-Jan-02
Posts: 8
Chuck, You have to appreciate that the SPEAR is built around our bodies hard wired neurological responses to danger or a threat. A real world surprise “oh shit” moment. So as Dr. Eric Cobb puts it…..physiology rules. The SPEAR system is unique as it responds to these threats. The SPEAR takes what your body wants to do naturally from an outside stimulus and builds a combative system around that natural response. It is what you would naturally do if you did not have any training. That is the beauty of it. You have the cognitive part of your brain where all of your learned skills are, SOP’s, True or False’s sit. It is the analytical part of your brain. Then you have your reactive brain. This is the part of the brain that can over ride the cognitive side in a situation where the ambush comes quickly and we do not have time to have a “learned” response. Not understanding the difference between cognitive and reactive is why martial artists get their heads handed to them when surprise attacked. This is the dependence on the "sport model" learned response or the “dojo response” ie..“the defense against a 2 handed strangle…or a wrist grab”. An agreed upon consented attack where we know what is coming and how it is coming and by who. So how useful is that when you are on the street w/o consent and your cognitive brain is bypassed and your reactive brain has the reigns and you have not "blue printed" your transition out of the reactive resonse. SPEAR is inspired by the reactive brain. This is the part of the brain that becomes activated in an ambush situation. Factors like speed of attack, awareness, proximity and aggressiveness gauge whether your SPEAR will be Primal, Protective or Tactical. Primal SPEAR simply put could be where you have a “zero” potential response time to the above factors and were caught in a pure “surprise” mode. Protective SPEAR could be a range of the factors of speed, awareness, proximity and aggressiveness that allow for a better response time and perhaps had you in a state of “suspicion” of an attack. Tactical SPEAR could be a range of factors where you were “certain” you were being attacked and the factors of speed of attack, awareness, proximity and aggressiveness were more easily handled by you and you were proactive in countering the attack with the tactical SPEAR. This is a simplistic answer to a well thought out and "hard wired" self defense system that Coach Blauer has developed. I suggest you inquire with hsi team regarding their learning library and get the SPEAR tapes. Additionally, there is a great article by Dr. Eric Cobb available on the Blauer website (WWW.TONYBLAUER.COM) that gives you the scientific and practical application of the SPEAR System. Joe Mullings
7/29/02 7:21 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 29-Jul-02
Member Since: 01-Jan-01
Posts: 36
Thanks Joe, I think my confusion is that I think of protective and primal as the same thing. Your adding in the "zero potential response time" and the "suspicion of an attack," help put them in a framework for me. I just downloaded the article, but haven't had a chance to read it yet. Thanks again! Peace, Chuck
7/29/02 9:04 PM
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Eric Cobb
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Edited: 29-Jul-02
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Chuck: Great question. What you are asking about is at the very core of understanding the SPEAR System vs. the SPEAR tactic - in other words, the waterfall vs. the picture of the waterfall... Joe - Great job on the explanation. You've obviously been reading and studying... As far as the article goes - don't get bogged down in the vocab/vernacular. Ultimately the conclusions of the article are simply restating the facts of our behavioral reactions that Tony has spent the last 10 years explaining to the DT world. The SPEAR System is unbelievably deep and is based on the facts of human physiology and cutting-edge learning models. Still amazed by it and Tony on a daily basis. I'll have more to add later but am pressed for time. Eric
7/30/02 7:57 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 31-Jul-02 09:10 PM
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Thanks Eric, I am totally blown away by Coach Blauer's material. I just wish I'd found it twenty years ago! :-) I'm interested to hear the add on. . . :-) Thanks. Peace, Chuck Edited
7/30/02 7:58 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 31-Jul-02 09:10 PM
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Thanks Eric, I am totally blown away by Coach Blauer's material. I just wish I'd found it twenty years ago! :-) I'm interested to hear the add on. . . :-) Thanks. Peace, Chuck
7/30/02 8:05 PM
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JJS
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Edited: 30-Jul-02
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Chuck, Joe M. did a great job of explaining the 3 SPEARS. Here are a few illustrations to add to that to get a picture of the Evolutions of the Flinch. 1. You are answering your door. You open it and the person charges you. Proximity (right on top of you), very Aggresive and Fast. Your psychological awareness is Suprise; your Spear is Primal jumping back trying to push away the danger. 2. You are in the midst of a verbal defuse. Proximety is close (within arms length),your psychological awareness is suspicion (may turn dangerous,but he is really not showing his cards). Suddenly he throws a fast right haymaker at your head (aggression). Your hands were up in a non-violent-posture. You flinch, your hands reach out to block the punch as you duck under it and step to the side. Protective Spear. 3. Take illustration #2 again only this time he is about a foot farther away. He is outwardly aggressive in both his physical and verbal language. You see his left leg move forward as he winds up with his right hand. Your micro-flinch and launch a Tactical Spear at his intention landing center mass. Three feet away he is lying on his back with you standing in Close Quarter Stance prepared for his next response? Hope these windows let a little more light into the room. Then attend one of Coach Blauer's seminars or the PDR and get the floodlights turned on the stage. Joe Skovira
7/30/02 8:21 PM
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temp152885
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Edited: 30-Jul-02
Member Since: 31-Jan-02
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Joe S, thanks for the followup and visuals....2 Joe's are always better than one. Joe Mullings
7/30/02 9:21 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 30-Jul-02
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Thanks guys! Sorry about the double post. Did you know that if you hit the refresh button on your browser after posting that it would repeat the action? :-O Peace, Chuck
8/8/02 2:58 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 08-Aug-02
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Posts: 41
ttt
8/14/02 6:20 PM
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Eric Cobb
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Edited: 14-Aug-02
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Chuck: The two Joe's have done an excellent job with the visuals. Let me just tweak everything a bit by peeling the onion even further... Tony has always taught that the first place we are attacked is in our emotional system - our spirit so to speak. Whether that's an intuitively bad feeling, pereception of danger or whatever. Now, here's the question. If we perceive danger or the threat of danger and it causes us to alter anything that we do - our breathing, our eye positioning, our hands or simply our internal level of awareness - is that a flinch? And, if so, how does that relate to the primal and protective versions of the SPEAR? I want to give everyone a chance to chime in and start a bit of dialogue before I add anymore. As I said in my first post, this is one of the most important concepts in BTS and ultimately understanding it thoroughly is vital to becoming a substance vs. subject matter expert. When you have time, please post and let's lay a foundation that Tony can expand on later. Thanks, Eric
8/14/02 9:33 PM
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Varley
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Edited: 14-Aug-02
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Whether unconscious or conscious , if we react at some level to a stimulas , in this case 'a bad feeling' etc then I think we have flinched . And by doing so we have taken an important step towards converting that flinch into action . Our response might be primal or protective , but the seed of that action can be found in that initial flinch . And our conversion will include our sympathetic response , all the way forward to us pushing away the danger . Var
8/15/02 1:15 PM
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P
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Edited: 15-Aug-02
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Eric, If we 'perceive danger' and something changes that we didn't cognitively decide to do, that something is a flinch. Tony spelled out why a particular version of the SPEAR occurs both at the last PDR session and at the 1st PDR Camp: 1. Proximity 2. Speed 3. Aggressiveness 4. Awareness Powerful formula! If you are relatively unaware; the attack is close, fast and mean...assuming (hopefully) you perceive the danger, the chances are your response will be a Primal or Primal/Protective SPEAR. To me this illustrates the importance of practicing the Primal, Primal/Protective, and Protective conversions...not just our 'favorite Tactical ones'. My 2 cents...great thread! Phil
8/16/02 8:51 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 16-Aug-02 08:54 PM
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Eric, You wrote, "If we perceive danger or the threat of danger and it causes us to alter anything that we do - our breathing, our eye positioning, our hands or simply our internal level of awareness - is that a flinch? And, if so, how does that relate to the primal and protective versions of the SPEAR?" I think so. "Whether unconscious or conscious , if we react at some level to a stimulas , in this case 'a bad feeling' etc then I think we have flinched . And by doing so we have taken an important step towards converting that flinch into action . Our response might be primal or protective , but the seed of that action can be found in that initial flinch . And our conversion will include our sympathetic response , all the way forward to us pushing away the danger" . The question(s) this brings up for me is how to train it. I recently watched (and took lots of notes) Tony's tape Ballistic Micro Fights, which had some info on the Primal/Protective flinch and their conversions. But what about idiosyncratic movement? For example, after decades of kickboxing when (especially when I am minimally aware at best) something comes at my legs, I tend to leg check or (destruction) the incoming object (vector). A real time example would be--a boy swund a stick at my leg recently- I checked it and took it away from him. Is there a conversion for this? Or am I already programed? :-) "1. Proximity 2. Speed 3. Aggressiveness 4. Awareness Powerful formula! If you are relatively unaware; the attack is close, fast and mean...assuming (hopefully) you perceive the danger, the chances are your response will be a Primal or Primal/ Protective SPEAR. To me this illustrates the importance of practicing the Primal, Primal/Protective, and Protective conversions...not just our 'favorite Tactical ones'. " So I am learning! Awesome! Peace, Chuck
8/16/02 10:26 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 16-Aug-02
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Sorry for the add on, but I had another thought. . . With the group I train with, we work on awareness drills (qualitative--pick a particular something out of a group of somethings, and quantitative--sort of like a soft focus, letting the sensory info flow, we then integrate this with body postions, learning body language, facial calibrations, and such, to garner intent--). In Eric's post he made mention of eye position, and its relation to the flinch. So, long winded though it is: what is the training progression for autonomic body systems? Breathing, eye focus, aural focus, et cetera. I know that flinching is also (largely) autonomic, but it involves multiple systems and somehow, even though it's more complex than an eye shift, or a breath catch, it seems "easier" to convert. Peace, Chuck
8/17/02 1:47 PM
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JJS
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Edited: 17-Aug-02
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Eric, Another visual to the emotional/psycholigical flinch. Phil may even remember a conversation I had on the phone about 1@1/2 years ago when he I told him this incident and he said it was my flinch. There was a fire in the engine room of the County Administration Bldg. After evacuation I received a radio transmission that there was someone on the 4th floor. I left the Commissioners to race up the back stairwell only to reach the a locked steel door on the 4th floor. I remembered (Don't Stop Thinking) that the east stairwell was open. I raced down 4 flights of stairs to the basement to cut across the building (shortest route). As I reached the basement stairwell I stopped running for a second as I saw light smoke. An emotional/psycholigcal flinch? as a quick OH S*** raced through my mind and I quickly accessed the situation and keeped running. Through the basement corridor to the east stairwell and the 4th floor where I carried wheelchair bound girl down the west stairwell after finding her. Not a personal attack scenario, but a emotional/psycholical flinch converted into a tactical S.P.E.A.R. (correct me on that if I am wrong as I am taking the tactical to be the conversion of the stop/emotional flinch into "moving into the danger" a tactical run forward to my goal.) Joe Skovira
8/18/02 10:58 AM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 18-Aug-02 11:04 AM
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Posts: 163
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
"I tend to leg check or (destruction) the incoming object (vector). A real time example would be--a boy swund a stick at my leg recently- I checked it and took it away from him. Is there a conversion for this? Or am I already programed? " Chuck, interesting example, decode it, 1. A boy: serious threat or playing around, the emotioal connection, the agression changes everything! 2. Swung a stick (you didnt write drilled a crowbar) again the words as icons, tell me your emotional arousal level was low). Back to the fomula: you had AWARENESS, you mustve....cause this (or his speed or lack of) triggered the cognitve response, thats waht the SPEAR System evolves too, we shouldnt wait to flinch, we flinch when we must ... T NEXT: Joe S. great story and no, you are not wrong...THe SPEAR SYSTEM is a metaphoric LIFE system, thats why we alsways differentiate between tactics & system.... Philosophies are life building (or shrinking) filters...my path has always included a deliberate effort to write and research principles that had transcendent value...(3-Dimensional!!!) otherwise we get trapped in the SPORT model or the statistical model.... Aside from most of that sort of info just plain boring me intellectually, more importantly, it restricts or limits creativelty, becuase it doesnt engender or demand spontaneity (tactical athletic freedom) beucase we unconsciously try to measure up to the MOLD or technique or replicate the statistic (I cannot break the 4 minute mile!), when we think outside that (RangeRover drill) we get a different performance (Sakura vs Gracie). The SPEAR System is not about the startle-flinch its about what causes it, how to you convert it, how do you retrain it and much more...so while this thread is awesome with tons of important frames and thoghts, remember its all organic, its all alive... Its about the courage to explore. TOny
8/18/02 10:16 PM
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JJS
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Edited: 20-Aug-02 08:53 PM
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Posts: 5

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