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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> More than just a matter of respect!


3/7/02 8:32 AM
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JoeStagner
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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Peyton Quinn recently posted this on an AOL Forum .... Tony has something of value to offer in his training, i would say it was more self defense oriented and practical than typical martial arts. It is curious you should mention this as on my hog trip I meet with some ex Federal Marshal and we were watching a Tony Bluer tape. It was the first tape I had ever seen of T. Blauer's stuff. A Marshal had also said to me sometime previosly that the Bureau had studied the RMCAT tapes etc (without my knowledge by the way, as i have no intrest in training the Feds). The RMCAT promo tape had been provided by a RMCAT graduatte who happen to be a Fed. I ws told that the sub director had decided that RMCAT training was simply "too violent for law enforcement officers". I laughed out loud when I heard that. It was a bit shocking to me when i saw Blauer's tape. The Blauer's tape was, in sections , almost word for word and technique for technique (like i said almost) identical to the first instructional video had made almost 20 years ago. But I doubt that Tony ever even saw my tape. To be frank about it, I think that is where it still remains too, Tony has better material to offer than most self defense wise, but i guess i am just gettting to old to be too diplomatic here. It seems to me that Tony is where i was with RMCAT maybe 10 years ago or more. The main point here also as i see it is: IF anyone who sincerely sets out to truly teach self defense, and then studies the real world situation out there as Mr Blauer apparently has done, or better yet actually has real world fighting experience and signifcant real world fight observational experience, Such an indivdual if they have logical and open mind and a sincere desire to improve the students chances for survival, and they are not hadicapaed by too much martial arts training, THEN they will all come up with somehting quite similar in a training program. Technique wise it will be nearly identical.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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JoeStagner
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Consider the training of WW2 soldiers in hand to hand combat in units like the OSS, or Rangers . or the ealry marine raiders program. Look at Fairbran and Sykes and the recently departed Col Applegate who I talked with more than once about this subject. What they did way back then looks more than a bit like RMCAT today (and some other organizations too) it's just that we have the technology of the armor at RMCAT which is a very dramatic training advantge. Mr Blauer has some "armor", but as yet he simply does not grasp the utilty of the concept of asymetric training, hence it is on little vlaue to his program as far as i can see. After all, consider boxers who use head gear and tapped hands and gloves in their training. I ask you, is that training method going to work for most people self defense needs though? The answer is no, not for most people as this is a symetric training method. Yet, Boxing is a very good traing method, just not for most people's self defense needs. This is true even though anybody who thinks the average black belt could stay on his feet more than 10 seconds with even second rate "has been" boxer is truly in "dreamland". A real irony is i had never heard of Tony Blauer until a saw a letter in Black Belt magaziine responding to a previous issue's story on RMCAT. The jest of the letter was that I and two others doing similar work had all stolen it from the "original createor", who was of course T. Blauer. I have never meet Tony, but the reputation he has developed for claiming to have invented everything connected with self defense training seems to be supported here. The reality is that there is simply nothing new under the sun. I did not invent armored assailant training or adrenal stress training itself. Neither did the Ancient Romans but they used both even in BC times to trin soldiers and even more so gladiators.. It recurrently amazes me somehow that adult, experienced martial arts profesionals can believe they "invented a technqiue". They can even believe that they invented a training method. But clearly it is all ignorance or ego or a mixture of the two. One might improve or modify or open the scope of a training methodology, or even adapt a technique to a new application, but nobody can truly invent or create anything really new in this field. Not me, not Tony , not anyone. Nor does anyone have to teach people to defnd themsleves in the real world of today. Some peple are always searching for some ulitmate martial arts too, but as Hock H said so well "there is not an ultimate anything, not even an ultimate cheeseburger" Things to ponder i hope. Peyton
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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JoeStagner
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Now, I'm not a big fan of Peyton Quinn. I think he is a terrible role model and I think, as someone who has done every thing he claims to have built his experience on, I don't think he could have survivied most of what he says he's done given the lack of his vocabulary, his obvious lack of physical trainig/fitness and his mosterous ego.... But I have purchased his book and tapes because I consume everythiun that I can get my hands on about street self defense. The more I though about Quinns comment, the more angry I got. Not because Tony my friend, but because Quinn would publically disuade people from view Tony's theories - making a judgement after watching a few minutes of one single video. I've never claimed to the the baddest guy on the planet. At nearly forty - I've had to get pretty humble to still train with young animals and keep my sanity, but I survived a few hundred REAL fights in my youth, and I can tell you one thing for sure..... The biggest share of the secrets to victory are found in the SMART fighter, listen to Peyton and Tony - who's who is quickly apparent, in more ways than one. I still train and teach to help others be safe, and achieve their goals - period - Peytons comments are socially irresponsable - and patently inaccurate. So, I wrote him the folling letter in email. So far he has lacked the courage to reply ! Train Hard - Be Safe ! Joe Stagner Joe@StopRape.com
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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JoeStagner
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Dear Mr. Quinn: As a reader of your book and customer of your video tapes please accept the following for your consideration. Not to endear you to me, but rather to set a common vocabulary. I am a former Marine, combat specialties. I Kick-boxed (In the USA, Canada, Australia, and Malaysia) in the late 70’s and early 80’s with 47 victories and 39 K.O.s. and was undefeated as an amateur boxer training Pro at Conley's in Boston. I worked for over 15 years as a Bodyguard (On both sides of the law, mostly for musicians, were you get to "GO" almost every night) a bouncer and a cooler in the New York, Boston, and Tampa Florida Scenes. (Encounters included every thing you can imagine, and I have knife wound scars to prove the “experiences”.) I have worked training law enforcement at a variety of levels. I have been awarded Black Belt levels as follows – 6th Degree JungSaDo, 4th Degree Okinawa Kempo, 3rd Degree Jukado, 2nd Degree Budo Jujitsu, 2nd Degree American Kempo, 1st Degree Tae Kwon Do. I own an Urban Tactical Training Center in Concord New Hampshire and have trained with out interruption since 1972. My research library includes several hundred books and nearly 800 training videos, including yours. In addition to the above Martial education I own and operate several successful business and I hope these accomplishment reveal to you that, unlike many of the fans of your work, I have “walked the walk” that you credit your experience to. You posted recently on an AOL forum that Tony Blauer was ten years behind you in the state of his research and that your only exposure to him was the recent viewing of an old tape. Continued.........
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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JoeStagner
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Mr. Quinn, I submit to you the following. 1.) Could the depth of your Martial Science understanding be wholly grasped by a partial viewing of one of your old “Scooter Trash” video tapes, and would you appreciate a respected martial artist casting disparity on you by virtue of such a small exposure. 2.) I have a copy of text penned by you some time ago that declares your first exposure to Tony Blauer was in 1991. Had you forgotten this, or was the more recent statement dishonest. 3.) Having attended several Tony Blauer seminars and viewed ALL his video training tapes (as I have viewed all of yours, Paul Vunak’s, SCARS, Lysak’s, Animal’s, and a score of other “reality” Martial Artists), your statements relative to the evolution of Tony Blauer’s methods and your own could not be further from the truth. I assume that you have “really” been, and done, the things you refer to on you tapes, I know that I have lived that life and therefore compel you to look at Tony’s material in a less “competitive” light. 4.) As a NAPMA member, I now have great concern about you involvement and exposure to the NAPMA community (although I have not expressed this concern to John as yet.) I run StopRape.com on the net and have just secured financing for a great new venture along those lines. My goals do not include self promotion and I am free of the ego related competitiveness that seems to plague you guys at the top of the “street combat" teaching game. To unknowingly renounce material of GREAT value to the very students you declare yourself to care deeply about is a mixed message at best and criminally, morally, and socially liable at worst. While I object to the “Scooter Trash” image that you portray on your tapes, especially the “on camera beer drinking debriefing” on one of your videos (which I hop you now regret) I think a good deal of your theory has value. Please Mr. Quinn, rest on the merits of your own accomplishments rather than detract from others without more thorough research. You’re accomplishments stand on their own – as do Tony’s. While it would challenge your respective egos, what could you collectively do if you and the Paladin Crew, Tony Blauer, Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson, Jerry Peterson and the like could but differences aside and collaborate. That would be something !!! Sincerely, Joe Stagner Joe@StopRape.com
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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The RealStudent
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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Some people dream of the way things could be, Joe. I deeply respect you for that.
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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Taku
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Great letter Joe!! Pleas keep us up to date on what follows (although I expect nothing will). Liam.
11/5/01 6:38 PM
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martial_shadow
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Edited: 05-Nov-01
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ttt
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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firecontrol
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Edited: 07-Mar-02
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good work Joe :) :)
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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tmorenz
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Joe, that was incredible!
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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taroson
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Joe, Thanks for writing and sending that excellent letter. I seriously doubt that many of the men you listed on the list will be getting together any time soon... I do give Burton Richardson props for crediting Tony in a recent issue of Inside Kung Fu. Perhaps there is hope. Mike
3/7/02 8:32 AM
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JoeStagner
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Thanks, I have some money asside and intend to try to put together such a "Gathering". I intend to ask everyone on that list and more to teach sessions at theis "Summit" - so far only Tony has agreed to be there (assuming I pick a date that he has open), and still - not even the courtesy of a reply from Quinn. Be Safe, Joe

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