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Weapons UnderGround >> Knife & Gun disarms.


9/27/05 8:59 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 27-Sep-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 23475
 
I was trying to explain to someone on the judo forum why japanese jujitsu and aikido do not offer realistic disarms, because the reality is that disarms themselves are crap! and that the training methods of these traditional arms do not yield realistic training vs fully resiting non compliant persons. naturally I'm a shitty "sport" guy and I have no credability even thought I've been a student of WWII combatives, LEO training and weapons training for several years now. I thought that maybe if he heard it from this forum, he might be able to get opinions from experienced people.
9/27/05 9:38 PM
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TacticalGrappler
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Edited: 27-Sep-05
Member Since: 04/04/2003
Posts: 460
Bull- I posted over there, check it out.
9/27/05 11:05 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 27-Sep-05
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Thank you for your input TG. Well stated.
9/30/05 9:52 AM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 30-Sep-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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flopsy, When you have no choice, the best way to attempt a disarm (IMHO) is similar principle to judo and bjj submissions - apply the leverage of your entire body vs. his arm. ex. control his arm with both hands, get him donw on the ground and immobilize him as you control the weapon.
9/30/05 2:22 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 30-Sep-05
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honestly? whatever it takes... I'm not trying to delu???oyself into thinking that it's going to go smoothly.
10/1/05 3:15 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 01-Oct-05
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20% effective might = 80% chance of getting you hurt worse.. Not being nagative, just thinking or the big picture.
10/2/05 11:07 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 02-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 23553
Flopsy, I completely understand what you're saying. and you are 100% correct :-D However I think that when you decide to drill techniques like these that they need to be rooted in reality and just like combat sports should be tested in the manner that makes the training as alive as possible but allows you to train safely. No Lie training Blades is an excellent tool for this in my opinion.
10/3/05 9:10 AM
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TONTO-Dpg
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Edited: 03-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 7234
Disarms should be reserved for friends and family members.
10/3/05 7:11 PM
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GrandpaB
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Edited: 03-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 798
Your best bet is using a coat for a shield and hitting with anything you can pick up or throw. It is better to start hitting before he starts sticking, once you are grabbed and he starts slamming the point in you it is a downhill situation. Other than that it is trying to deflect or stop the knife before it gets in you and hitting with anything you have available. I have done some drilling and have not yet found a technique that is foolproof. Grandpab
10/4/05 4:06 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 04-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 8912
bull - look into FMA I know people who have pull off knife diarms in real life and death situations - one was a cop wit only a few years training - your entire premise is wrong -
10/4/05 4:50 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 04-Oct-05
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sreiter, I duno .. I've seen alot of CRAP in FMA.. there may be a jewel in there but you've got to sort thru the mud to find it.
10/5/05 8:55 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 05-Oct-05
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bull - I think the problem with dis-arms is for the most part you gotta be real good to pull them off - and usally against unskilled attackers - given the choise, i'd rather not try - but if you got nothing to lose, migh as well - dan inosanto actually disarmed edgar silute' when edgar first got here, he got into a argument with someone(i forgot who), and the dude went pulled a blade and went to stab him. Dan was close enough to the action that he was able to strip the knife (FMA) from edgars hand -
10/7/05 8:01 AM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 07-Oct-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 1390
Like someone said, disarms ARE for friends and family members. Had Edgar gone for DAN with the knife, that would have been different....See my point...:);) People are sometimes a bit hysterical about knifeattacks...it depends on the situation. My dads CO friend disarmed some young punk who started a ruckus in a minimum security prison. He didnt have any equipment, hes fat, has a grayish beard, and hasnt trained anything in his life....SO everybody turn it down a notch....ok? Some drunken idiot with no fighting skills or instincts isnt Dan Inosanto. Dont look at FMA training tapes and think thats the reality.If you mentally handcuff yourself BEFORE the fight, you´ve already lost... Knifefighting IS DANGEROUS, but its more then possible to win and survive, SOMETIMES even disarm against a normal untrained attacker....
10/8/05 12:00 AM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 08-Oct-05 12:01 AM
Member Since: 09/29/2002
Posts: 5947
If a knife is within grabbing distance: Grab a 2 on 1 to a Russian tie. All the while looking for a trip or a chance to grab the weapon to twist and disarm. You could also end up in a hammer lock/Kimura/ude garami grip. Twist until that shit breaks off or he drops the weapon. This is clinch work for the str33t! Edited to add: Don't foerget all the knees, headbutts, and elbows from the clinch too.
10/8/05 10:07 AM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 08-Oct-05
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"What is a Russian tie?" both hands control one arm. ex. - he is holding the knife in his right hand. you need to create and angle to get to the outside so that you are controling the wrist with your right arm and the inside of his elbow with your left.
10/14/05 3:42 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 14-Oct-05
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If a knife is within grabbing distance: Grab a 2 on 1 to a Russian tie. sorry, but i have to laugh at this - um, what happens when he simply swiths hands - i mean other then the fact that his knife hand is free while both your hands are tied up, and you are now in "sticking/cutting" range? getting close enough to clinch will get you killed - please stop giving superman info to people, it wil only get them killed
10/14/05 10:28 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 14-Oct-05
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sreiter I've got to disagree. Especially since I know you're a FMA guy and I think much of FMA is the wing chun of the weapon world = absurd amount of trapping in a range where the clinch is a reality. btw: I'd decided to go against my rational mind and practice the Sayoc 3 of 9 template. Ever see it?
10/15/05 9:39 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 15-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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i learnt it from chris sayoc himself LOL - in the movie "the hunted" tommy lee jones is teaching it in a scene anyway - it aint bad - it was designed to go with a persons natualy reactions to cuts - - ie - if you cut him here, his hand will cover his wound, leaving him open for this or that strike - bull - do a little experiment - have someone you know hold a magic marker and try to cut/slash you as you try to clinch him - see if you get marker - then try it with a trained knife fighter -
10/16/05 1:51 PM
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Bull_in_chinashop
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Edited: 16-Oct-05
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"bull - do a little experiment - have someone you know hold a magic marker and try to cut/slash you as you try to clinch him - see if you get marker - then try it with a trained knife fighter" as I said above with my suggestion for training with the No Lie Training Blades. When it comes to a knife fight, you're going to get cut. I'd risk one cut as I came on for a hard parry to clinch & control than to get a dozen while standing toe to toe with him with no control over him at all if my life was on the line. otherwise I'm just handing over my wallet (or trying to figure out how to get to the nearest safe place) I recently got my Ohio concealed carry, but to be honest I still feel a little weird about carrying.
10/17/05 12:36 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
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lol no shit - i've had a ccw for a year, only carried once - but have no problem carring a blade - as far as 1 cut - dude - i'm no saying dont try some shit - just dont try it the way you're thinking about it - 2 on 1 is bad - too easy to switch hands and cut you up bad - sure, one little cut - what about one major thrust as you're coming in?
10/17/05 1:34 AM
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e. kaye
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Edited: 17-Oct-05 09:31 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Disarms should be happy accidents. In the course of parrying and surviving, if you happen to do something right, and the disarm is there, then go for it.
10/17/05 2:49 PM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
Member Since: 09/29/2002
Posts: 6044
sreiter, So what do you recommend? Try to square off? Sounds bad, even against an untrained guy with a knife. I stand by running or clinching. Unless you can present a superior weapon.
10/17/05 2:58 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
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first and always - run if you cant run give them what ever they want (within reason) if you have no choice - and have no weapons - throws keys at their face / split in their eye - domething to get them to flinch - grab their weapon hand with one hand - preferable finger on the pad of their thumb - if you dont know how to strip the weapon, beat them with your free hand/defend yourself with your free hand/ dig their eye balls out with your free hand then try and take the weapon/knock it outta their hands AFTER they're peppered - i say the same to you ronin - try and clinch your friend who's holding a magic marker - shit, you've see enough mma fights to know thai knee's aint gonna end the fight after one knee - you are in to close with both your hands tied up/unable to defend yourself if you clinch
10/17/05 3:36 PM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
Member Since: 09/29/2002
Posts: 6052
I don't like that at all... You're saying grab the weapon hand with one hand and strike with the other? But you don't like the clinch in this scenario? I'm confused, because if you grab him, you're clinching. "you are in to close with both your hands tied up/unable to defend yourself if you clinch" -In a 2 on 1 and then a Russian tie I'm using both of my hands to control his one weapon hand. With any luck I can shove his knife into him. The whole time screaming "drop it" over and over at the top of my lungs right into his ear. Trips and knees come when there's opportunity as long as the focus is the weapon hand. Potentially eating strikes from his free hand is the price you pay when facing a knife empty handed.
10/17/05 4:11 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 8991
jeezus try reading my post for god sake - i been through this twice already - your two hands on my arm ties up your hands - i grab the knife with my free hand out of my tied up hand and stab the fuck outta you- how much knife trianing have you done? I've been training it for 10 years

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