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Weapons UnderGround >> Knife & Gun disarms.


10/17/05 4:36 PM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
Member Since: 09/29/2002
Posts: 6056
I'll grant you that that's a possibility in the 2 on 1 technique I describe. It's also a possibility in the technique you describe. How does that make yours superior? I've done very little knife training. How much grappling have you done? I've been training it for 20 years. What we're talking about is as much a grappling fight as it is a knife fight.
10/17/05 9:11 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 8992
i wrestled on my high school team 4 year shooto 8.5 year bjj the difference in the scenerio i describe is you still have one hand free to defend with if he switches hands BTW - I'm a edged and impact weapons instructor under ron balicki who was a professional shooto fighter in japan and is dan inosanto's son-in-law - he runs the cold steel tacticle center - i also trained grappling with him we work many grappling vs knife scenerios - grappler almost always dies - even when he's a highly trained grappler and knife expert
10/18/05 12:02 AM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 18-Oct-05
Member Since: 09/29/2002
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"we work many grappling vs knife scenerios - grappler almost always dies - even when he's a highly trained grappler and knife expert" -I don't doubt that at all.
10/18/05 11:14 AM
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TONTO-Dpg
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Edited: 18-Oct-05 03:42 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 7237
"otherwise I'm just handing over my wallet (or trying to figure out how to get to the nearest safe place) I recently got my Ohio concealed carry, but to be honest I still feel a little weird about carrying." I think you're on the right track. You've taken the first step by getting your conceal & carry.....now become the feeder. Ernie Lake Kapatid Apprentice Instructor Sayoc Kali
10/23/05 9:47 PM
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TacticalGrappler
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Edited: 23-Oct-05 09:53 PM
Member Since: 04/04/2003
Posts: 461
He can switch hands if you do it with one hand, too. Don't count on eye gouges and other stuff to work in reality. Don't count on disarms working either - unless you are jamming the blade into the ground or into his leg - then he might drop it. 2 on 1 IS weak though, when you do it with actual force on force training. And they WILL switch hands. Red Zone's baseball bat grip is better, drive him down, you will have much better control of the weapon arm and off balance, he will have a hard time switching hands which may buy you time to get distance. There is a marked difference between going two hands on and tying your hands up controlling him. The first is very important, the second is not a good idea. It's not a good idea to clinch unless you have absolute control of the weapon arm and can keep him from switching hands. Very hard to do that. Seriously get Red Zone - best knife defense DVD out there. Do it against resistance and use what works for you. I think you will find the same things as noted above. Steer clear of ANY teaching that bases its method on what the bad guy's reaction is - this is staged and very unrealistic - many people show no reaction at all to being cut or stabbed - they often don't even realize they are being cut in real world knifings. This includes people NOT under the influence of intoxicants. And most of the people that will be assaulting you will be in this state. Don't expect your stuff to have ANY effect, and train as if it won't. Instead, watch vids of prison fights and real world knife assaults. Train for and against that kind of assault, not the martial artsy stuff.
10/24/05 12:36 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 24-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 9057
while i agree with some of what you say - and your advertisement aside He can switch hands if you do it with one hand, too. try actually READING what i wrote (2x already IIRC) - he can switch hand BUT YOU HAVE ONE HAND FREE TO DEFEND YOURSELF WITH Don't count on eye gouges and other stuff to work in reality. dont discount them either - i have had TWO training accident involing getting eye goughed - once in BJJ where i went to shoot, and the guy sstuck out his hand to push my head, the other, a instructor feed me a ice pick grip thrust my hand slid off his sweaty forearm, and the training blade thrust right into my eye - in both cases i dropped like a stone and was totally incapacitated (sp?) no way i could have continued if my life depended on it - adrenalien would NOT have carried me through
10/24/05 8:44 AM
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TacticalGrappler
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Edited: 24-Oct-05
Member Since: 04/04/2003
Posts: 463
"no way i could have continued if my life depended on it - adrenalien would NOT have carried me through Meth may have. Don't expect others to be equally indisposed.
10/24/05 12:50 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 24-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 192
To clarify the Edgar Sulite story referenced above. I was there. PG Edgar was in a struggle with someone else. A friend of Edgar's came flying across the room with a large tanto headed straight for Edgar's adversary's kidney. Sled Dog did the disarm of the friend or the adversary most likely would have died on the spot in short order. Guro I. grabbed the adversary and I grabbed Edgar and we pulled them apart. The only relevant portion of the story to this thread is that a Kali disarm was done under very high adrenal circumstances where killing intent was present. Please do not ask for further details. Also, Brandon Lee came home one night to find a burglar in his apartment. He was cut on the hand while accomplishing the Kali disarm. So, IMHO the disarms can work (and can fail!). BTW speaking as someone who trained as a private student of PG Edgar during his time in America, I surely would not want to have to try any of it against him!!! I have seen the Red Zone tapes and have some agreement and some disagreement. The part I can agree on is that training should include active training with someone attacking as attacks are actually done. Concerning the 2 on 1 hold. I have been teaching this position as one of the major variables in the DBMA matrix for EH vs. knife since 2001 (i.e. well before the RZ's were released) In an example of different people coming to similar conclusions via different paths, my discovery of the merits of this position came via my active training of the material and methods derided by some as "dead". (Perhaps I should take to calling this training "the living dead" or "the Greatful Dead"-- no wait! That one already is taken! ;-) ) I have cross-referenced my understanding of the position as part of my training with the fine folks at R1 (formerly RAW), but I came to my preferred expression of the position well before my exposure to wrestling. Of course the issue of passing to the other hand needs to be addressed. Depending on how you get to it and your understanding of how to apply it, IMHO this issue CAN be addressed-- and if you are not able to establish the particulars required by the presence of a knife, well then, MOVE ON! Woof, Crafty Dog
10/24/05 2:04 PM
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Marc_Scott
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Edited: 24-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 2004
Russian Judo
Steve, Have you worked a clinch, two on one, hand wrap etc against knife attacks. I only ask because for me before I trained them it seemed unrealistic compared to FMA type disarms and then I found more and more that the FMA disarms I have seen, and still see (strips against the body for example, or punching out the blade)worked less than the ones worked on from a solid knife and arm control. You don't have to keep two hands on the weapon, you can switch, you can move, ect. Just because you start with a 2 on 1 doesn't mean you have to stay there.
10/24/05 2:44 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 24-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 9060
good point about moving Marc - I have work 2 on 1 (the wrestling move described) - and clinch Not sure what you mean by hand wraps - The strips against the body, ect, i question too - i think they are presented as "well, if you HAD too, you can do this too - I'm planning on movig back in cali in a few months - i would be very interested (if you're willing) - to explore your counters - no ego's, no gripes, just working TOGETHER and seeing some new stuff - if you have stuff i'm not aware of, or whatever, i would be very open to learning new things - i know wehave had disagreements on here - but that shouldnt stop some good exchanges of techs
10/24/05 3:52 PM
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Marc_Scott
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Edited: 24-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 2005
Russian Judo
Steve, Let me know when you are in town I am more than willing to share whatever I have.
10/24/05 6:58 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 24-Oct-05
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thanks
10/24/05 11:09 PM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 24-Oct-05
Member Since: 09/29/2002
Posts: 6327
Thanks all, good discussion. I had a thought. Could this be 2 slightly different, but viable in their own right, approaches to a problem? Is the 2 on 1 approach just the grappling preference? And an FMA disarm a more free range preference? Kinda like Sprawl & Brawl Vs. Ground & Pound? Not to imply that anybody here would having a problem with ANYTHING that proves effective. I think their might be some differing definitions of a clinch here too. A 2 on 1 in my mind falls into the "clinch" even if its not the traditional over-under, aka "we're both tired" position. Does anybody here disagree with that? Not saying I'm absolutely correct. What TG describes sounds very much like a set up a teamate of mine kills me with hitting an ankle pick. A Ko Soto Gari or Ko Uchi Gari is good there too if I'm correct in visualizing the position TG describes?
10/25/05 11:38 AM
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TacticalGrappler
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Edited: 25-Oct-05
Member Since: 04/04/2003
Posts: 464
Guys, Anything can work, and anything can fail. There are people that have had the end of a finger shot off and died of shock, and people who have taken multiple rounds and suffered extensive damage and continued fighting. For which outcome should you train, then? Go for what works at the highest percentage when trained repeatedly against the widest variety of trained and untrained attackers who are legitimately trying to violently stab you - either with a training blade or the real thing. Consider not that your attacker will be easily foiled, but that he will be amped up, drugged out, impervious to pain and willing to be damaged in order to do more damage to you. Then you will be prepared for the worst. The other folks are easy compared to that. As I've said, for me, the 2 on 1 simply worked poorly when the knifer's goal was to do ANYTHING he could to get his blade free and use it. The hand switch Steve notes occurs very readily in that position - and the "switch" like they show in STAB is iffy at best. If you do end up at the 2 on 1 I am with Ronin Gear you need to be taking the guy down and NOT going with him. The "baseball bat" grip (hands together at his wrist) immediately after the pick up worked much better, it took the guy off balance forward, sometimes even putting him on the ground, and drove the knife into the ground, sometimes disarming him. He often then tries to pull the knife up which allows you to direct it into his leg. We found a quick turn to 90 degrees while keeping the arm straight by driving the near shoulder into his elbow also worked well to lock the arm out and continue to keep him off balance, even into the ground. I fundamentally agree with Steve that you need to be doing damage to the guy, and there are a number of strikes available here while locking the guy's arm out. Again, RoninGear's takedowns also present themselves here without tying up. He can switch hands with any technique, this one keeps him off balance so its harder to make that switch and if he does, effectively turn the knife on you. Through momentum he is pulled off balance forward, then continued to be forced down with the 90 degree step and the arm lock that he has a hard time getting his hands together quickly or being very effective with the switch. This is time you can often use to break distance. Marc and I have been chewing on this stuff from time to time when we have trained together, though we do things a little differently. He has some interesting follow ups to the initial BB bat grip position. There is always interesting stuff out there, and it is doubtful any of us will agree on everything, based just on our varied backgrounds. I just learned a weapon retention method for gun-in-hand based on FMA stick strips that works really well, and that I was somewhat skeptical of on first sight. I then was able to use it during force on force "gun grappling" with some training partners both in that class and against others, and found it more efficient than what I was doing before. I also recently learned some other stuff that was horribly ineffective and that the instructor could not even pull off against a committed attempt to take his weapon - and this while specifically teaching weapon retention and starting with his gun in holster. So, the key is not what you do, or what system it comes from, but under what conditions you are evaluating it, and what are the highest percentage methods you can make work and teach others to make work.
10/25/05 3:56 PM
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Marc_Scott
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Edited: 25-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 2006
Russian Judo
"Marc and I have been chewing on this stuff from time to time when we have trained together, though we do things a little differently." By that do you how I insist you wear a thong and feathered boa during training, and you just make me wear leather?
10/25/05 7:23 PM
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TacticalGrappler
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Edited: 25-Oct-05
Member Since: 04/04/2003
Posts: 465
Uhhh, Marc ... that was your outside voice - leave that kind of thing to your inside voice. ; )
12/3/05 2:21 PM
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Austinn
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Edited: 03-Dec-05
Member Since: 07/15/2005
Posts: 53
BY R.S.N. MURALI SEREMBAN: Four armed robbers fled for their lives when they inadvertently broke into the home of a Muay Thai (Thai kickboxing) coach at Taman Bukit Intan here. The 28-year-old Muay Thai coach John Yong fought off the four Indonesian robbers when they broke into his home at 2.30am yesterday. Yong, who was woken up by the screams of his 52-year-old mother, rushed to her aid and saw that two of the robbers were busy tying up her hands while the rest were ransacking her room. Yong immediately went for them. He kicked the two robbers who were busy tying up his mother. They fell to the ground but the other two robbers retaliated by slashing Yong?s right arm and chin with a meat cleaver. He also sustained a shoulder wound after being stabbed with a screwdriver. Undeterred, Yong continued attacking the robbers, injuring them all. Realising that they were unable to take on the martial arts exponent, the four fled with only a mobile phone. Yong?s family members rushed him to a private hospital here for treatment. When met at the hospital, Yong said he wanted to teach the robbers a lesson as he was infuriated with the way they had treated his mother. ?Luckily, my eight years' experience in boxing came in handy,? he said. Yong said he fought with all his might against the four robbers, adding: ?At one point, I felt like the silver screen hero, Jackie Chan, when I took on the four.? OCPD Asst Comm Mohamad Abdullah said police had launched a manhunt for the robbers. http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2004/10/1/nation/9023628&sec=
12/3/05 2:24 PM
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Austinn
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Edited: 03-Dec-05
Member Since: 07/15/2005
Posts: 54
http://www.thestar.com.my/archives/2004/10/1/nation/n_6yong.jpg
12/4/05 12:19 AM
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Austinn
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Edited: 04-Dec-05
Member Since: 07/15/2005
Posts: 57
Martial arts expert kills two raiders Philip Willan in Rome Monday October 13, 2003 The Guardian A Chinese martial arts expert was in custody yesterday after turning the tables on four burglars armed with knives, killing two of them and seriously wounding a third. The 28-year-old man, known as "the doctor" for his practice of acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, managed to seize one of the two knives carried by his assailants and saw off the entire group with the ferocity of his reaction. Magistrates in the central Italian town of Empoli are now seeking to establish whether his self-defence constituted an excessive use of force. Article continues -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The butchery, worthy of a Quentin Tarantino film, began shortly before midnight on Friday when the four men knocked at the apartment of a Chinese hairdresser in the centre of Empoli. The hairdresser, her assistant and "the doctor", who operated from the same premises, were reportedly overpowered and tied up before the group, all thought to be in their 20s and 30s, ransacked the apartment. Disappointed by their meagre booty, the attackers allegedly threatened to rape the two women unless they told them where the rest of their money was hidden. At this point the doctor managed to free himself, seize a knife from one of the aggressors and deliver a series of lethal stab wounds. Investigators found the body of one man, who had been stabbed in the heart, sprawled on the staircase and another man bleeding to death in the street from a wound to his leg. A third man is recovering in hospital from a punctured lung. The doctor was found crouching in the entrance to the building with cuts to his shoulder, face and hands. Investigators are trying to determine whether he inflicted the injuries while defending himself inside the apartment, or hunted down the burglars after they had fled. http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,12576,1061765,00.html#article_continue
12/7/05 11:10 PM
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Islanddogg
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Edited: 07-Dec-05 11:16 PM
Member Since: 10/04/2002
Posts: 20
Interesting discussion. With all the interest in unarmed defenses against the knife, I'm surprised that more people haven't gone that route in the Dog Bros. gatherings. I include myself in that category and plan to do more of this in future gatherings, especially with the advent of more emphasis being place on blades at the gatherings. I
12/8/05 8:05 AM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 08-Dec-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 233
Woof Island Dog: I have been trying to get traction on the matter of hidden knives for a number of Gatherings now, and with the most recent one think it finally took hold. For those of you who don't know, traditionally we have begun with a round of what we call "sport knife dueling" as a way of getting the blood moving for a day of stickfighting. The fight would begin with both fighters tapping knives and beginning. This time I had both fighters come together to begin with their knives hidden somewhere. Although I will be fine tuning this for next time, (typically both fighters jumped back and drew knives) the simple experience of having to access a knife as part of the fight led to some fighters doing so during clinch or on the ground during the stickfights. Good learning!!! :-) The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog
7/23/06 2:35 PM
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Dogbert
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Edited: 23-Jul-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 15142
Here is a video clip from STAB seminar where they drill the 2on1, including what to do when the attacker uses the free hand to strike or tries to switch.
7/25/06 4:20 AM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 25-Jul-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 319
Woof All: I'm on the road interviewing a Filipino master and on the hotel connection cannot get the Tanswell clip to play. Anyway, please forgive me a moment of marketing which I sincerely offer in the belief that it is of relevance to the queston presented here. Check out the clip at www.dogbrothers.com titled "Die Less Often: Intro to the Interface of Gun, Knife and Empty Hand". Naturally the super duper magic technique is blurred out :-) This triple disc (two of instruction, one of interviews and various tangents such as fights and other things) is taking pre-orders now and when it actually begins shipping (10 days?)the price will go up. End of commercial. In my thinking I break the question down into the concept of framing and action. By framing I mean something which many of us may know as "the fence"-- a concept well-developed and articulated by Geoff Thompson of England. The particular frame which I teach I call the Kali Fence because it comes from the Filipino Martial Arts and I wish the Art to get the credit unlike some other techniques and ideas from this lineage which have entered the general lexicon without credit. Kali is a weaponry art and IMHO, when properly understood, it does a deep job of creating the angles necessary to maximization of success. Tuning now to the matter of Action. Action can be: Pre-emptive Interceptive Reactive Against the most likely types of attacks the Fence must allow for the actions taken in each category. In the case of the material I teach in the DVD (Gabe Suarez teaches the Gun portions of the DVD) the pre-emptive and interceptive material is quite similar. The reactive response to the most likely knife attacks I call "the Dog Catcher". The intention of the design of the DC is to pick up a wide range of the mostly likely angles of attack which, when combined with a particular footwork not only diminishes/shuts down continued attacks, but creates one of several quasi-clinch Kali Silat positions (which in my case are leavened with input from MMA people with whom I confer such as Rico Chiapparelli) with promising prospects due to dimished potential for the attacker to switch hands, and sound possibilites for disarms/captures as well as receiver grip applications (e.g. Inosanto Blend's return to sender) The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog
7/25/06 11:52 PM
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psychoslasher
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Edited: 25-Jul-06
Member Since: 04/08/2004
Posts: 906
I kind of started skipping things once I got to the people laughing at the 2 on 1 control and talking about switching hands; so if this has been covered......please forgive me. If you properly apply a 2 on 1, they will not be able to switch hands. Applying a proper 2 on 1 means that you have control of their wrist and their elbow/tricep area. That's pretty basic and most people realize this however if you have guys switching hands on you while you have a 2 on 1; you are leaving a huge part of this move out. To properly control the arm, you ABSOLUTELY MUST apply pressure on their shoulder by pulling their wrist across your body while driving your own shoulder into the back of their shoulder/tricep area. Most people who do this incorrectly leave that arm out in front of them while trying to control the 2 on 1, this is where the hand switch comes into play. Doing this move correctly, you'll be facing the same direction they are with the arm locked out. Now this isn't a position that you just get and say "ok, I've got them now". Once you've got control over that arm, next you need to start working trips or some other type of disarm. There are several that can be done but all of this is basic wrestling. I've tried this, as a matter of fact I was training this last week with a marker, against full on attacks and you may get cut but gaining control of the blade is not as difficult as it may seem if you know what you're doing. So to sum it all up, if they are switching hands from your 2 on 1; you are no doing the move correctly.
8/3/06 3:43 PM
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coachpit
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Edited: 03-Aug-06
Member Since: 02/25/2003
Posts: 66
imaged Roy Jones with a knife now that's full on and committed. If the first control of the weapons hand doesn't lead to a break or put you in position to break right away then it's to risky. Closing the gap has enough risk trying to control with out softening up the attacker again too risky. I think a cat like Roy would be a hard test for any defense, so make sure that your training partner is up to par if you can't get Roy into your gym. If it works against a cat like Roy I'll buy it. without a doubt. be easy and train harder peace

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