UnderGround Forums
 

PhilosophyGround >> PLATO WAS RIGHT!!! You are wrong!


10/7/05 1:45 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Socrates
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Oct-05
Member Since: 08/02/2001
Posts: 643
 
Plato was right. If you wish to dispute this, I welcome a conversaiton regarding a CAREFUL reading of any of his dialogues. Note "careful". I am sure that anyone who devotes himself to a careful reading of a Platonic dialogue will have to agree that Plato was a GOD. People who read and/or think poorly will not see the truth in this.
10/7/05 3:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
asymmetrik
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 468
Plato had a beard.
10/7/05 4:01 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Dogbert
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 15053
Careful=in ancient greek?
10/7/05 4:11 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Dogbert
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 15054
And how can a`dialogue be right?
10/7/05 12:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FudoMyoo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 12576

last week I actually read quite abit of Platons writings as part of the course in the history of philosophy and to me it seemed like his theories got some serious problems (like most philosophers do of course. so I don´t think that problematic theories removes anything from his greatness as a thinker from his times).

"Plato was right."

Right about what?

 

10/7/05 3:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
dnwsr
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 2528
right about what is the question i have as well. it would help to be a little more specific. fyi, i'm definitely an admirer of plato, but you're going to have to be more specific.
10/7/05 11:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Subadie
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Oct-05 11:11 PM
Member Since: 10/09/2004
Posts: 244
Where does Socrates stop and Plato begin ? The first dialogues are mostly Socrates, the middle are a mix, and the late are mostly Plato ? How far do you go until you start getting more of Plato's thoughts ? Now for a comment. People say we know little about Socrates the man. This is not true, as we do have sources outside of Plato. Aristophanes, "the Clouds" is of course about him, and any historian will tell you that the reason Aristophanes was so critical had to do with Socrates' waning popularity resulting from his connection to his most famous student. The biggest student of Socrates at the time was who ?... Anyone ? right, you guessed it: Alcibiades. Pericles nephew Alcibiades was one of the most intriguing characters in Ancient Greece. He was really a great speaker and fighter/general. He was exiled from Athens after a loss (it was sort of like those who jump off the fighter bandwagon here), he went to Sparta, became advisor to the king, slept with the King's wife, and publicly bragged when the baby looked like him. He was exiled from Sparta, lucky to leave with his life, and went to Persia. He talked them into giving BIG money to Athens, used the money to work his way back to being a top general in Athens, subsequent misdeeds caused his exile again and he eventually worked his way to be a Thracian. HIs final exile brought the wrath of the people who blamed his teacher, Socrates. Thus the hemlock. Why do historians know this but philosophers don't ? I know I never knew it while I studied philosophy, but only learned it reading history.
10/8/05 7:37 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FudoMyoo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 08-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 12578
interesting
10/8/05 1:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 08-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 5317
I think Subadie means: "The philosophers I know don't know that." I'll have to check my notes from philosophy class to see how accurate your claim is compared to Mann's who is considered an expert on the topic. Socrates was also a pug-nosed and stocky man, and he spent a great deal of time walking around the streets giving the people he encountered a hard time. During these times, he was also followed by a gang on youths. He wasn't particularly popular in Athens, but having a student that was a general in a hostile city-state was the straw that broke the camel's back. -doug-
10/8/05 1:15 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 08-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 5318
And besides, Plato's biggest accomplishment was having Aristotle as a student :) -doug-
10/8/05 9:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
marck
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 08-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 6421
I believe this is what Socrates will argue: Plato, where he seems to be wrong, gives hints in other places that contradict whatever he said that seems incorrect. And the careful reader will catch this and interpret the more reasonable position to be the REAL argument Plato's making.
10/9/05 5:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FudoMyoo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 09-Oct-05 05:41 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 12579
well, Plato doesn´t really offer any good solutions to the critique he gets in Parmenides. But now it would be nice if Socrates came back and explained himself here, so that we can stop speculating..
10/9/05 8:56 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Dogbert
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 09-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 15056
That means Plato was good at writing introductory textbooks for philosophy students, little more...
10/9/05 2:38 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
vermonter
117 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 09-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 5321
Parmenides owned Socrates and Plato. None of the philosophers of the time could answer his questions. Of course, it was a lack of proper understanding of math/physics. The first to come up with a reasonable answer to Parmenides was Aristotle, which, it seems to me, is one of the things that made him among the greatest philosophers. -doug-
10/11/05 9:54 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Subadie
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 10/09/2004
Posts: 249
Perhaps some here don't like Socrates because of his three requirements for a successful dialogue: 1. candor - don't know how straightforward people are being here, but there's no reason for me to think that we are not. 2. intelligence - on the whole, I'd say the people who post here seem pretty bright 3. goodwill - while certainly possessed by some, this characteristic seems to be a little lacking in others. Or, am I being harsh ? what do others think of the level of goodwill among the posters here ?
10/11/05 4:49 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FudoMyoo
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 12583

"what do others think of the level of goodwill among the posters here ? "

I think it´s pretty ok, generally speaking. sometimes it comes trolls here of course like on all forums.

10/11/05 8:14 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Socrates
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 08/02/2001
Posts: 645
Ummm... I don't really remember writing this :) I think I was quite drunk and looking for a debate. Sorry for the confrontational tone; I guess I wanted to get people's attention, which it looks like I did! Anyway, I stand by what I said, I will try my best to respond to everyone...
10/11/05 8:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Socrates
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 08/02/2001
Posts: 646
asymmetrik- Good point. Dogbert- I've spent a couple years studying ancient Greek, so yes, I would prefer a conversation about Platonic dialogues in the original language, but I do not think that is a requirement to a good conversation. Regarding how a dialogue can be right... I would say that, through his dialogues, Plato is trying to teach his readers. It is the readers job to correctly interpret the dialogue and thus to learn from it. So, the correct interpretation of a dialogue is something like a Platonic teaching. These, I contend, are right. Unfortunately, most people have NO idea how to interpret a dialogue. I believe that Plato uses far more than arguments to convey his teaching. He uses the setting and the action of the dialogue, the characters' names, allusions to Greek literature and history, etc... The dialogues are like huge, complex metaphors that need to be considered in their details. They are NOT simply arguments. Unfortuanely, people read the dialogues and give careless, superficial interpretations as "Plato's theories", and then contend that he is wrong. I was hoping that people would throw out some superficial interpretation of dialogues, which I could show to be wrong; and I think they have...
10/11/05 8:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Socrates
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 08/02/2001
Posts: 647
FudoMyoo- Could you give an example of what you consider to be Platonic theory from what you read? dnwsr- Anything I feel like I understand of Plato, I believe is correct. I think it would be easier if people presented theories of his that they believe are wrong, and I could try to show them why I think they are mistaken, like in the example of Parmenides below...
10/11/05 9:03 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Socrates
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 08/02/2001
Posts: 648
"Where does Socrates stop and Plato begin ? The first dialogues are mostly Socrates, the middle are a mix, and the late are mostly Plato ? How far do you go until you start getting more of Plato's thoughts ?" I don't see ANY reason to think that Socrates EVER simply speaks for Plato. Why would you think that? I also don't think that there are "first", "middle", and "late" dialogues. Why would think that? No offense, but I think I know why you think that. Some Professor told you, or you read it in a modern commentary. Well, unfortunetly, these sources are wrong. They are not based on careful readings of the text, but on 20th century German philology, which would have you believe that the "Hippias Minor" is not authentic Platonic dialogue (unfortunely for the Germans, Aristotle says it IS Plato; that's gotta hurt!). I HIGHLY recommend you read the intro to "The Roots of Political Philosophy" for a more detailed explaination of why that theory is garbage. Or just ask yourself this... why didn't any of Plato's students mention this "progress" in Plato's thought? You would think they might know something about it. Regarding your comments, I agree with the general point, but I think the details of your account are quite mistaken. For instance, Alcibiades did not go to Sparta after a loss, but fled there to avoid going to trial for a trumpted up charge of impiety (which is very important to know if you want to understand the Plato's "Symposium" for instance. Also, Alcibiades did not help Socrates image, but he was FAR from being the worst. Critias and Charmides, for instance, were acquantneces of Socrates, and they became part of the "30 Tyrants" who SLAUGHTERED democratic Athenians after the Peloponnesian War. Plato wrote dialogues named after these guys, wherein Socrates chats with them warmly when they are young. That would be like a dialogue named "The Hitler" wherein Socrates chatted warmly with a young Hitler. Some people were annoyed by his questioning, but his hanging around soon-to-be-tyrants was a much bigger factor, and Plato highlights that fact in many of his dialogues. By the way, I think Socrates did this because potential tyrants can be the best philosophers, as a proper reading of the Republic will show you... No offence, but these are very obvious points, and if your philosophy teachers did not mention them to you... well, it just shows how carefully people read the dialogues, I guess.
10/11/05 9:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Subadie
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 10/09/2004
Posts: 253
Socrates I am neither a philosopher nor historian, so will defer to your expert opinion. I must also say that you do write better when you are not drunk. (However, I did notice that you didn't comment on my "goodwill" question) Yes, in fact I was told by a professor that the dialogues were divided into early, middle and late and that the early ones were mostly Socrates. My not understanding the comment led to my question. Thanks for your response and I think I will read the "Roots" book to correct my misunderstandings. Depite my neglect in incorrectly overemphasizing the causes of antipathy against Socrates, I mention Alcibiades because he is a wonderfully intriguing character and I hoped to guide some others to his exploits. No philosophy teacher ever mentioned him because I do recall that all of their comments were restricted to people not liking those who are critical of their actins. Alcibiades however is a person I remember and loved reading about from reading about the History of Ancient Greece. I also loved reading the (translations mind you as I'm no Ancient Greek scholar) Greek poets such as Aristophanes too, so I threw that in as well. It seems now that you mention it, that I read something or other about Critias (don't remember Charmides) but he did not interest me enough to remember it. Perhaps your comments will inspire me to read something about the other historical causes of his unpopularity as well. Any suggestions ? Well, I went to good school with very nice professors, who struck me as somewhat competent. So, who knows ? maybe they did say it and I just forgot.
10/11/05 9:32 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Socrates
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 08/02/2001
Posts: 649
About Parmenides... First off, Parmenides did not "own" Plato, as I believe he died about a decade or two before Plato was born. Secondly, PLATO WROTE THE PARMENIDES, the only source for this "ownage". HE put the arguments against the forms in the mouth of Parmenides. Furthermore, in the dialogue, Socrates is 18 years old! Just think, does it make sense to think that Plato wrote the Parmenides, where he put his own theory in an 18 year old kid's mouth, and then had a mature Parmendes destroy his own theory? It's a mind numbingly bad interpretation (although still quite popular). Mustn't Plato be more aware of anyone of the flaws in the theory of the forms as presented by a young Socrates, considering PLATO wrote the arguments against it?!? Wouldn't it make more sense to think that Plato wrote the Parmenides in such a way to show the flaws in one way of thinking of the forms, and perhaps to ILLUSTRATE the correct way to think about them? Also, the whole story of the Socrates conversation with Parmenides is recounted many, many years later by a horse enthusiast (Antiphon- who is a "half brother" of Plato... you must consider this when thinking about the problems of the one and the many in the Parmenides). These are not unimportant details! Just clear your mind of everything you have read about or been told about Plato, and read the dialogues with an open mind. You will see that Plato uses the character of Socrates, but his beliefs are not simply those of Socrates, let alone of an 18 year old Socrates.
10/11/05 9:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Subadie
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05 10:00 PM
Member Since: 10/09/2004
Posts: 255
I read that a couple of times, and despite being quite interested, I have no idea what you just said. Could you perhaps limit yourself to the question at hand. Tell us why you believe that Parmenides views are trumped by Socrates.'
10/11/05 10:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Socrates
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 08/02/2001
Posts: 650
Subadie- About goodwill, I don't think Socrates always has goodwill - perhaps he does to his friends, but he is downrighht hostile to many people- check out how he treats Callicles in the Gorgias, or better, Anytus at the end of the Meno; he's harsh to these people. I think he has a reason, but it's not goodwill, at least not in any conventional meaning of the word. Also, I think he seldom has candor. Everyone like to think of Socrates as open and honest, but Alcibiades in the Symposium says he's known for being "ironic", that is, he is not open but everything he says has multiple meanings. I also think he often misleads people, sometime for their own benefit, but he's still misleading them. And intelligence, well, I'd point to characters like Phaedrus or Theages in the dialogues named after them- they seem pretty dense. Historical sources accounting for his unpopularity are somewhat difficult to come by- perhaps Xenophon's "Apology" would be close to that. The reasons become clear, though, if you read dialogues like the Charmides and Critias and study up on the biographies of these characters. The best historical reference is Thucydides' History of the Peloponnesian War, although it is a quite long and a bit slow at times. It does contain some great scenes starring Alcibiades, like his speech in favor of the Sicilian expeditian. He basically gives a speech which talks about how kick ass he is and how Athens should go crush Sicily. It's pretty cool. OH, and you should read Plutarch's "Lives". He has an account of the life of Alcibiades with some AWESOME stories. For instance, when Alcibiades was young, he was wrestling, and his opponent was about to win, so Alcibiades BIT him. His opponent let go of his hold and shouted, "Alcibiades, you bite like women do!" Alcibiades responded, "No, I bite like a lion does..." I agree with you, Alcibiades was AWESOME.
10/11/05 10:25 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Subadie
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-Oct-05
Member Since: 10/09/2004
Posts: 256
well, I'm going to bed. But before I go : Two blondes were filling up at a gas station one day, when one blonde says to the other, "I bet these awful gas prices are going to go even higher." "Won't bother me," replies the second blonde, "I always get just $10.00 worth." and A woman brought a very limp duck into a veterinary surgeon. As she laid her pet on the table, the vet pulled out his stethoscope and listened to the bird's chest. After a moment or two, the vet shook his head sadly and said, "I'm so sorry, your duck Cuddles has passed away." The distressed owner wailed, "Are you sure? "Yes, I am sure. The duck is dead," he replied. "How can you be so sure," she protested. "I mean, you haven't done any testing on him or anything. He might just be in a coma or something." The vet rolled his eyes, turned around and left the room, and returned a few moments later with a black Labrador Retriever. As the duck's owner looked on in amazement, the dog stood on his hind legs, put his front paws on the examination table and sniffed the duck from top to bottom. He then looked at the vet with sad eyes and shook his head. The vet patted the dog and took it out, and returned a few moments later with a cat. The cat jumped up on the table and also sniffed delicately at the bird from head to foot. The cat sat back on its haunches, shook its head, meowed softly and strolled out of the room. The vet looked at the woman and said, "I'm sorry, but as I said, this is most definitely, 100% certifiably, a dead duck." Then the vet turned to his computer terminal, hit a few keys and produced a bill, which he handed to the woman. The duck's owner, still in shock, took the bill. "$150!? she cried, "$150 just to tell me my duck is dead!!? The vet shrugged. "I'm sorry. If you'd taken my word for it, the bill would have been $20, but with the Lab Report and the Cat Scan, it's now $150.00.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.