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Weapons UnderGround >> David Grossman / Killology?


10/16/05 8:04 PM
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Alex
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Edited: 16-Oct-05
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Does anyone know anything about this guy? He's a local and supposedly he's well known, and several of my friends regard him as a guru. What's the verdict on him? Any opinions?
10/17/05 10:31 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
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I've read his book "On Killing", as well as several counter arguments against some of his basic premises. I found Grossman fairly convincing and the counterpoints fairly weak. Even if I consider Grossman's numbers to be exaggerated by 100%, it still completely changes my thoughts about human nature in war.

It's interesting, at the very least.
10/17/05 5:21 PM
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Aaron Little
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Edited: 17-Oct-05
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Grossman's books "On Killing" and "On Combat" are certainly worth the read.
10/18/05 6:37 AM
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GrandpaB
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Edited: 18-Oct-05
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I read "On Killing" some years ago and just finished reading "On Combat" and think they are both excellent books. He documents and uses a lot of references to back up his premises. In "On Killing" he states that a good way to kill another human is by sticking your thumb through their eye and into their brain, that is not a realistic technique (IMO) and when I asked him about it he admitted that he had no references backing him up on its use. He also more or less says (in "On Combat") that with training a "warrior" can become pretty dispassionate about killing at close range. I didn't see any documentation on that either and have some doubts about just how valid it is. Anyway, I highly recommend reading both books, especially "On Combat". Grandpab
10/18/05 10:49 AM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 18-Oct-05
Member Since: 03/23/2002
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Thumb in the eye? LOL, yeah well, you CAN kill someone by kicking them in the liver. Been done many times probably in the history of mankind. I know someone who got a ruptured spleen in training. On combat situation, say behind the lines,he MIGHT very well have died. But would I count on it as a "kill move"...HELL no. Eye is not a soft bag of liquid waiting to be popped. Yeah it has liquid, but its HARD. Jamming your finger THROUGH someones eye, and digging in to their brain, with them kicking and screaming, blood and other liquids flowing, makind your hands slippery, youre sweating, out of breath, thumb slipping from the socket, hell you need another guy to hold him still...;)Real professional.And fast. He seems to like A.) to shock his readers B.) old kung-fu/splatter movies a bit too much.
10/19/05 10:17 AM
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Alex
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Edited: 19-Oct-05
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You don't think the thumb in the eye is practical? Where I've trained, it's considered one of the most surefire ways to end a confrontation. I've always thought thumb in the eye was part of the self-defense Gospel.
10/19/05 7:47 PM
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GrandpaB
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Edited: 19-Oct-05
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The eye gouge has always been a part of self-defense training and although mostly prohibited was used extensively in many early wrestling matches. I have never seen, heard or read of anyone being killed with an eye gouge though. As finnfighter pointed out, it is really difficult to pull off. It works well to give you the advantage in a grappling situation because it causes temporary (or permanent) blindness and a great deal of pain and psychological damage. B.J.Cosneck in "American Combat Judo" gives instruction on it and I give a different version in "Strictly Street Stuff" but we both point out that while you are gouging your opponent has both hands free to counter your moves, possibly going for a backup weapon. I have seen this tried twice in the street and both times the guy being gouged just literally went berserk with rage, fear and pain and beat the living crap out of the gouger. Frankly, I wouldn't want to blind someone and would only rub my finger/thumb in someones eye long enough to escape. There is a lot of psuedo lethal BS out there that people are charging good money for. Grandpab
10/20/05 3:00 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 20-Oct-05 03:03 PM
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I have used an eyegouge myself. A guy held me from behind in a bearhug, while his loser friend WALKED RIGHT IN FRONT of me, smirking. Well, he had me UNDER the arms and....well, you can probably guess...(heh) still, he recovered and pulled a knife..ended well, no-one hurt. I had some help... The point is, he was more scared than anything when he jumped back, and gave me time to release his friends grip.Im not badmouthing gouges, but to kill someone with them is...unpractical.And hard, trust me you can use a surprising amount of pressure and hell still keep coming. P.S. Anyway, if used "seriously" you wouldnt be just jamming your thumb in the eye. You push either the forefinger or the thumb in from the corner of the eye, going under the eyeball. You pop it out, you dont go through it. Its practically impossible in a combat situation... Besides, I think that theres some tissue(very little but still) behind the eye, the brain doesnt just start from there...you would need some long nails...:)
10/20/05 6:52 PM
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finnfighter
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Edited: 20-Oct-05
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Fuck, I thought so!!!!!!! Goes to show how easy it is to go into "groupthink", social psychology anyone???:) I just thought that since no one else (including an "AUTHOR") mentioned it, well, might not be so...wasnt 100% sure... feeling stupid...damn......but I knew there was something there..should cut down on the drinking....;)(drunk as we speak...lol)
10/21/05 9:54 AM
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Willybone
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Edited: 21-Oct-05
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Well, the actual methods of hand-to-hand killing really aren't Grossman's area of expertise, so I'm not surprised he's got bad info there.
But, I still respect his views and work in the area of the psychology of killing and warfare.
11/3/05 5:08 AM
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EntryTeam
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Edited: 03-Nov-05
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His "Bulletproof Mind" seminar is fantastic. -Ronnie
11/4/05 7:19 AM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 04-Nov-05
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What does his "Bullet proof mind" seminar cover? I've read "On Killing" and own and have on my "to read" list his "On Combat". I thought OK a very interesting book, though found the video game theme overplayed. I did have an objection to his self-congratulatory notions of no one having thought of or covered this before inaccurate-- Austrian Nobel Laureate (ethology) the late Konrad Lorenz, wrote quite deeply and thoughtfully on this matters in "On Aggression" and in subsequent works.
11/8/05 1:22 PM
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Stickgrappler
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Edited: 08-Nov-05
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i'm reading this book now. some of the RBSD (reality-based self-defense) books i've read mention "fight or flight", and they mention posturing, etc. what i got so far from ON KILLING is a broader view to the fight or flight syndrome, but has not been in my readings so far been explicitly said: it's "fight or flight, posture or submit". that made my day. ok, i don't get to read much lately.
11/23/05 4:23 AM
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EntryTeam
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Edited: 23-Nov-05
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Crafty Dog, if I had to quantify it simply...i would say the mental/spiritual aspect of force, using it, and surviving its use against you. He goes over the body and mind's specific physiological and psychological responses, the science of it..."killology"....and then a little background on the history of modern violent behanvior. It's alot like "mental preparation for armed confrontation"(another LEO type seminar)...but WAYYYY better. Grossman's the bomb. -Ronnie
12/16/05 6:13 PM
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ironmongoose
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Edited: 16-Dec-05
Member Since: 04/17/2002
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It could be misleading to say only that Grossman's graduate work in psych was in "school counseling". In North America, "counseling" programs have traditionally been in the school psych department in the Education faculty. But some of them are pretty good, and clinically-based. Didn't he also do experimental research and teaching at West Point? Not familiar with his ideas, have only checked out some of his articles. What claims of his have been "debunked"? I always thought his claims were pretty vague and general, like "gee, first person shooters look an awful lot like the stuff we did to operantly condition guys to shoot baddies..." Viewtype, can you point me to specific critiques, sources, articles? I wouldn't mind boning up on this stuff.
1/7/06 9:01 PM
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Roly_Poly_Puppy
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Edited: 07-Jan-06 09:01 PM
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ironmongoose, one of the building blocks of Grossman's theory is that the peopld are loathe to kill and have to be trained. The source for this is cited from one interview of soldiers back in world war 2 which stated that the majority of soldiers didn't shoot their rifles at the enemy, or if they did, they fired into the air (posturing). The source interview itself has been thoroughly debunked by historians. The interviewees themselves claim to have never even been interviewed. This is discussed in numerous accounts such as Pinker's "Blank Slate" where he sites Joanna Burke's "An Intimate history of killing"[1], Grave's "Naked truths for the Asking:Twentieth Century Military Historians and the Battlefield Narrative" and Horowitz's "The deadly ethnic riot."[2] I've come a long way since reading Grossman's book since back in 1999. I disagree with the majority of what he puts forward mainly because of his lack of scholarly attention to detail e.g. citing debunked studies, citing jungian archetypes as psychological truths etc. I have yet to read "On Combat" but I found "On Killing" to be a very poor psychological account of warfare and combative mindset. A person could learn more from reading evolutionary psychology texts on warfare/aggression and reading the ethicist Jonothan Glover's "Humanity: A moral history of the Twentieth Century"[3] Sources 1. http://print.google.com/print?id=J_kMuQVXFkgC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&sig=8YVM96LLUKran8AFOWyQ1Scj96w 2.http://print.google.com/print?id=_opOYtLvl4cC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&sig=725mmkIcQ51dixVmM3Sp2JgL-vM 3. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300087152/002-1248891-4892867?v=glance&n=283155
1/8/06 9:57 PM
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ironmongoose
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Edited: 08-Jan-06
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Posts: 3237
Thanks Roly, I'll look into that stuff.
1/14/06 7:18 PM
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bandera
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Edited: 14-Jan-06
Member Since: 03/10/2002
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I also recommend, for evolutionary psych, that you read "The Moral Animal", by Robert Wright, if for nothing else, and introductory to evolutinary psych and human nature.
1/16/06 9:36 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 16-Jan-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 243
Stellar call on "The Moral Animal". The book is a deep read, as is Wright's follow-up "Non-zero Sum; the logic of human destiny".
2/22/06 1:36 AM
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Jerry Bohlander
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Edited: 22-Feb-06
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I haven't read on killing yet, but I have read "On combat" and found it a very good book. Just my opinion, but the points on the psychological and physiological effects of critical incidents are valid.
2/22/06 1:07 PM
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Alex
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Edited: 22-Feb-06
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Posts: 879
Wow - nice to hear from Jerry B!
2/22/06 2:08 PM
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riddlin
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Edited: 22-Feb-06 10:22 PM
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I have attended several of Grossman's seminars. I certainly would reccommend his work for anyone that goes into harms way. One of my favorite Grossman quotes, "You guys don't get PTSD, you GIVE it.. You're carriers. Some jihadi is going to be waking up with a cold sweat 30 years from now having nightmares about YOU."- LTC Grossman Jerry, great to see you here. Would you please drop me a line at possum_cop1 AT yahoo when you get a chance.
2/25/06 12:08 AM
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Jerry Bohlander
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Edited: 26-Feb-06 03:50 PM
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Posts: 44
Riddlin, did you get my e-mail?

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