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TMA UnderGround >> taekkyon vs. taekwondo


10/19/05 6:10 PM
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anodize
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Edited: 19-Oct-05
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Which would win?
10/20/05 4:37 PM
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rene.r
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Edited: 20-Oct-05
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Taekwondo is shotokan, Taekkyon is something they re-imagined to make Taekwondo seem not to be shotokan, so... Rickson by armbar
10/28/05 12:29 AM
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yusul
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Edited: 28-Oct-05
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i'd argue that tkd is improved shotokan.
10/28/05 11:30 AM
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anodize
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Edited: 28-Oct-05
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Actually, taekkyon advocates and practitioners like to make it clear that taekwondo comes from shotokan and not taekkyon, and that taekkyon is the original indigenous Korean martial art. I don't know what you mean by "re-imagined," but there is clear documentation that the taekkyon practiced today is descended from mainly one person - Song Duk-ki, who himself admitted that he never learned the full corpus of the martial art.
10/28/05 11:51 PM
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MrEgg
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Edited: 28-Oct-05
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Heres a link to breif history of tae kwon do http://www.barrel.net/history.php Song Moo Kwon was refered to as korean shotokan FYI
11/4/05 10:53 AM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 04-Nov-05
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They have no authenticated documentation of any indigenous martial arts, the Korean people have derived interpretations of other martial arts, ie. Judo, Aikido, Shotokan, Sumo. They call them by Korean names, but they are quite obviously derived and in some instances, contrived.
11/4/05 11:18 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 04-Nov-05
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vinasaya, are you trolling or are you just ignorant?
11/5/05 10:40 AM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 05-Nov-05
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Well, I may be ignorant of a few things, let's see what they are, shall we? I don't know why a famous Korean (Mas Oyama, KyoKushinKai Karate) chose the Japanese arts, when there were so many effective Korean arts to study. I don't know why he and all his fame and influence, didn't chose the original, indigenous arts of Korea. I don't know why the Korean arts of Kumdo, TaeKwonDo, Yudo, Ssureum, Hapkido, Musool, etc. look like Japanese Kendo, Shotokan, Judo, Sumo, Wushu, etc. So perhaps you're correct about my ignorance, perhaps I didn't travel and live in Korea during the 1980's while in the military, perhaps I didn't travel and live in Japan or Okinawa during my tour of duty. Perhaps what I saw back then was an optical illusion. there are arts that are being practiced now, that were not at all practiced in Korea, ask a Korean that is in his 40's, he'll tell you so, as back then, it was required to serve in the military and study close combat, ask them what arts were available and practiced. Thank you for pointing out my ignorance, I'll have to study more. And thank you for correcting my ignorance with all the proof to the contrary that you provided along with your comment. Thank you, Yusul. P.S. I spelled your name correctly, I must not be that ignorant, please spell mine correctly as well.
11/5/05 12:27 PM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 05-Nov-05
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Song Duk Ki, where do we begin? We only have photos of him performing the same angled kick for every technique, believe what you wish, but I'm not buying this anymore than I'd buy the whole Shaolin fraud. Out of the woodwork in the 1960's comes this old dude claiming to know the ancient art, notice that the other arts had clear origin dates, and the founders were still alive, so here comes an old guy to claim an entirely separate lineage of the ancient art of taekkyon, right. I seriously question a man whose land had been occupied and persecuted by the Japanese to allow his students to wear the garb and rank system of the oppressive Japanese. Take a close look at the so-called photographic evidence, most of the Korean Grandmasters served in the Japanese Military, they learned the language and the martial arts of Japan. The practice of the arts in Korea was not available to civilians since 1906, the ban was severe, if caught, you'd probably be killed or crippled, Song was around 10-12 years old when the ban came down, no responsible parent or teacher would risk a childs life to learn an art that was defenseless against guns anyway, so why bother? The risk vs. benefit was too great, so you have a 70 year old who hasn't trained seriously until the ban was lifted some 50 odd years later, that makes him a grandmaster? I think not!!! Even if he trained based on what an adolescent remembers until adulthood, who did he train with and how did he prove its effect or defect? Just because you claim to know something doesn't authenticate what you know, nor does it negate the possibility that he learned nothing at all, there are no surviving, objective witnesses. That's why there's so much junk in the arts today, everyone wants to live out fantasy. That's why the Traditional Arts have taken a back seat to MMA, its stripped of fantasy and mythical grandmasters. The Grandmasters of MMA are Boxers, Wrestlers, Judoka, Thai Boxers, and others that we've witnessed perform their respective arts in actual combat, and they have married one another into what is now termed MMA. If TMA wants to rise from its ashes, we must put away these childish fantasies and rise to the occasion of progressive change. Dan Gable, Muhammed Ali, Gene Lebell, are American grandmasters, we have actual footage of their combat effectiveness. The boxing, wrestling, Judo, Thai boxing coaches and others have continually proven the practical effect of their training without tales of mystical power and magical monks. R.O.K. soldiers used to be so tough, they could kill hogs and horses with kicks, if they kicked you, you die or wish you had. There was no controversy or care from them with regards to who or where their arts originated, they only wanted the best training.
11/5/05 6:35 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 05-Nov-05
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all right, i'll bite, but i won't go too long. keep in mind that i was a history major specializing in asian and american history: ''I don't know why a famous Korean (Mas Oyama, KyoKushinKai Karate) chose the Japanese arts, when there were so many effective Korean arts to study.' I don't know why he and all his fame and influence, didn't chose the original, indigenous arts of Korea.'' 1)for one thing, oyama was raised in japan, and was exposed to japanese karate during the time he was interested in martial arts. he wasn't in korea the time he was exposed to goju ryu and shotokan. 2)for another, indegenious korean martial arts were banned during the korean occupation, as was the actual korean language. the japanese instituted kendo and judo into the korean school cirriculum, depending on district. practicing korean martial arts (and speaking korean) was a punishable offense, which could also result in torture. during the yi dynasty, the last dynasty before the japanese invasion, martial traditions faded and became rare, outside of the actual military services, because the kingdom's philosophy of neo-confucianism, frowned on violence and put academic excellence at the top of the social hierarchy. so even before the japanese occupation, korean arts were in decline. without going into a further history lesson, suffice to say, that the korean military and monks fought off invasions of the japanese and chinese many times, starting from approximately the three kingdoms period, over 2000 years ago. it would be idiotic to say that they didn't figure out how to fight, if they were able to fend off invasion successfully. maybe you think they were just throwing rocks from trees, or something similar? korean fighting traditions were developed, based on philosophies carried from taosim and buddhism. of course the actual philosophies were imported from india, via china. this was blended with korean traditions and indegious fighting styles, as well as military traditions, which often borrowed tactics from chinese texts. however, to say these are really chinese and ignoring the korean adaptation and indegenous blending, means you might as well say chinese fighting traditions are really only indian, as that's where buddhism came from, and that's were there is a long tradition of fighting arts. on an interesting note to other readers, there is strong evidence that taoism actually originated from the ancestors of the koreans and the mongols, but that's another topic for the philosophy ground. ""I don't know why the Korean arts of Kumdo, TaeKwonDo, Yudo, Ssureum, Hapkido, Musool, etc. look like Japanese Kendo, Shotokan, Judo, Sumo, Wushu, etc." i explained about kendo and yudo. however, haedong gumdo forms look nothing like japanese kendo kata. although i heard from a haedong practitioner it's more popular in korea with women because they don't spar and they do forms and cutting all the time. the only similarity is that they wear armor, but that japanese kendo association doesn't resemble the older schools of swordsmanship. next, there are other sword schools in korea, don't expect to find everything easily unless you speak korean and have some connections. wushu is a chinese term for modern chinese martial arts and is a mainland government term. it is mostly acrobatic in nature. so you definitely don't know what you are talking about there. there is no evidence that sumo predates sirreum, although it's hard to find evidence either way because a)sirreum is a folk sport without much documentation and b)the japanese occcupation destroyed most of the korean texts and artifacts from the earlier period. ''So perhaps you're correct about my ignorance, perhaps I didn't travel and live in Korea during the 1980's while in the military, perhaps I didn't travel and live in Japan or Okinawa during my tour of duty.'' sorry, i didn't realize that during your stay, you said you learned the korean language and were able to research primary documents at universities, as well as speak in korean to the various martial arts instructors in the different provinces in korea. after all, they totally trust american military personal, who they don't see as occupiers after all. btw, don't you know that koreans aren't overly fond of non-koreans? of course being a drunk GI hitting on the locals, or fooling around doing tkd with some marines doesn't really count too highly for your academic quest, but i wouldn't accuse you of the former. ''Perhaps what I saw back then was an optical illusion. there are arts that are being practiced now, that were not at all practiced in Korea, ask a Korean that is in his 40's, he'll tell you so, as back then, it was required to serve in the military and study close combat, ask them what arts were available and practiced.'' i probably know more koreans in their 40's than you, as i have a korean background, and most koreans don't even know that much about martial arts first of all. just like most brazilians know more about soccer that bjj. general choi through a lot of political maneuvering, managed to unify the kwoons under the tkd umbrella, and found favour with the government. therefore, most of the troops studied tkd. you are taking the "if i didn't see the tree fall, it didn't happen'' perspective, and i really feel sorry for you. ''Thank you for pointing out my ignorance, I'll have to study more. And thank you for correcting my ignorance with all the proof to the contrary that you provided along with your comment. Thank you, Yusul.'' anytime. my comment was question, therefor wouldn't require proof, and this post is a answer. seriously, try and study some history books, and see if you can read them in the primary language. and lastly, get other sources besides the japanese as well, to get a balanced picture. read chinese texts, etc, even if they are translated. using most japanese texts for the period of occupation is like reading revisionist history about the holocaust from the nazi perspective. ''P.S. I spelled your name correctly, I must not be that ignorant, please spell mine correctly as well.'' spelling has nothing to do with ignorance. ignorance implies i didn't know. i really don't care if you spell my user name correctly or not, but if it's not that recognizable i won't respond. however, if it bothers you that much i do apologize for spelling it wrong and will be more diligent in the future.
11/5/05 7:00 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 05-Nov-05
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i just read the second part of the thread after. so here's the response to the next post, as i'm reading post by post. if you knew of the japanese occupation and ban, which your next post states, then you really shot your own argument about oyama in the foot. ''Song Duk Ki, where do we begin? We only have photos of him performing the same angled kick for every technique, believe what you wish, but I'm not buying this anymore than I'd buy the whole Shaolin fraud. Out of the woodwork in the 1960's comes this old dude claiming to know the ancient art, notice that the other arts had clear origin dates, and the founders were still alive, so here comes an old guy to claim an entirely separate lineage of the ancient art of taekkyon, right. I seriously question a man whose land had been occupied and persecuted by the Japanese to allow his students to wear the garb and rank system of the oppressive Japanese.'' as far as i know, and i admit that taekkyon isn't my specialty academically, he didn't wear the garb and practice in public. howver, i can tell you from first hand experience that there is a huge difference in kicking mechanics between korean arts, chinese arts an japanese karate. ''Take a close look at the so-called photographic evidence, most of the Korean Grandmasters served in the Japanese Military, they learned the language and the martial arts of Japan.'' not true, if they were in korea. there was conscription, but choi yong sool, hapkido's founder for example, never served. although he claimed to learn his art from takeda sogaku. ''The practice of the arts in Korea was not available to civilians since 1906, the ban was severe, if caught, you'd probably be killed or crippled, Song was around 10-12 years old when the ban came down, no responsible parent or teacher would risk a childs life to learn an art that was defenseless against guns anyway, so why bother?'' big supposition. there were people practicing martial arts during the ban. to assume you know the mindset of dead people without coming from the culture is a big leap. the bottom line is that koreans from that period hated japnese. who knows if hate wins over fear? also, there is some evidence that taekkyon was originaly a folk sport like wrestling, which could allow it to sidestep the ban. most of the documentation not destroyed by the occupation is in korean. admittedly, i didn't look long and hard at the information on taekkyon, but assuming because it doesn't exist in english, it doesn't exist at all isn't very convincing vinyasana.
11/6/05 1:00 AM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 06-Nov-05
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First of all, for a history major, your spelling is awful, as is your punctuation. Secondly, you state that there were still people practicing, but what was it? You still haven't ran down the list of Ancient Korean Martial Arts. You typed alot, but you haven't provided anything to support your weak position. Also, you state that most Koreans over 40 know little to nothing about the Martial Arts, that means that they are not at all popular, they have no extensive Martial Tradition, the Japanese have a strong tradition and they exported their Budo to Korea. As far as Korean's fighting war, no war is fought hand to hand, so even throwing stones is an improvement over fistfighting. You also assume that one must know the culture in order to make an objective assessment of historical value, well, if this is true, the your claim to have studied history was faulty at best, because you have limited your own scope of understanding. You also seem to be offended by criticism aimed at a Martial Art Society's false claims. Why,are you one of those starry eyed youths that buys those false claims? I think so. If not, provide proof of your claims, and while your at it, improve your reading comprehension and writing composition. Mas Oyama to the contrary of what you stated, studied Southern Chinese Kempo in Korea and left Korea at 15, changed his name from Choi Yong-I to Mas Oyama after the family he lived with in Japan. So much for your knowledge of Korea's most famous fighter. He also learned Goju from a Korean named So Nei-Chu, funny, he had 2 Korean instructors, neither practiced a Korean Traditional Art. His Shotokan, of course, is from Funakoshi, but you knew that. You write alot, as I said, but you know so little. Please invest in a spellcheck. Notice your contradiction below: "2)for another, indegenious korean martial arts were banned during the korean occupation, as was the actual korean language. the japanese instituted kendo and judo into the korean school cirriculum, depending on district. practicing korean martial arts (and speaking korean) was a punishable offense, which could also result in torture." "big supposition. there were people practicing martial arts during the ban. to assume you know the mindset of dead people without coming from the culture is a big leap. the bottom line is that koreans from that period hated japnese. who knows if hate wins over fear?" You should also proof read your composition before submitting it so you avoid glaring inconsistancies, first you agree with my statement, then you disagree. You are consistant though, like the Arts you claim. Consistantly inconsistant and woefully illiterate.
11/6/05 1:20 AM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 06-Nov-05
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Now, let's settle the disagreement, run down the list of Traditional Korean martial Arts and their respective lineages. Proof and truth will end this disagreement once and for all. Enough point/counterpoint BS. Let's get to the meat and potatoes, the facts, I eagerly await your submission with baited breath.
11/6/05 3:21 PM
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BushHog
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Edited: 06-Nov-05
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TKD = Shotokan?? WTF? Choi learned Karate and adapted it to his Korean arts.
11/8/05 1:50 PM
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anodize
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Edited: 08-Nov-05
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Not having a lineage does not disqualify an art from being traditional. Capoeira's lineage before the modern era is probably not so well documented. Similarly, taekkyon is a folk game which folks learned by playing and not necessarily from a master/teacher. That taekkyon is a real martial art is documented in written works, paintings, and even at least one photograph.
11/8/05 2:57 PM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 08-Nov-05
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Tradition does not always equal legitimate, the point and topic of the debate was not whether the art was/is in fact traditional, but whether or not it in fact exists within the capacity in which it adepts claim. My position is based on the paucity of factual lineages, photographic evidence, independent observers, leads me to belive that its a hoax. You state that Capoeira's history isn't well documented, but it has independent observers that date back to the 1800's, writings about the dance practices of slaves, it has an oral tradition as well. The Korean Arts are highly speculative at best. You have so-called "Grandmasters" claiming to have learned a long defunct art that no one else on earth learned. The art itself predates the birth of even Shaolin, yet, the katas are Shotokan. I applaud the Korean's spirit to attempt to develop a National Art that is devoid of their oppressor's influence. I find it admirable, but please stop with the tales of clandestine training, intrigue and magical monks. Sheesh already.
11/8/05 2:57 PM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 08-Nov-05
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Tradition does not always equal legitimate, the point and topic of the debate was not whether the art was/is in fact traditional, but whether or not it in fact exists within the capacity in which it adepts claim. My position is based on the paucity of factual lineages, photographic evidence, independent observers, leads me to belive that its a hoax. You state that Capoeira's history isn't well documented, but it has independent observers that date back to the 1800's, writings about the dance practices of slaves, it has an oral tradition as well. The Korean Arts are highly speculative at best. You have so-called "Grandmasters" claiming to have learned a long defunct art that no one else on earth learned. The art itself predates the birth of even Shaolin, yet, the katas are Shotokan. I applaud the Korean's spirit to attempt to develop a National Art that is devoid of their oppressor's influence. I find it admirable, but please stop with the tales of clandestine training, intrigue and magical monks. Sheesh already.
11/8/05 8:49 PM
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anodize
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Edited: 08-Nov-05
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Taekkyon definitely has quite a lot of textual evidence. There is even one source that is not Korean. Steward Cullen, an ethnographer, wrote a book called "Games of Korea" in which he documents taekkyon. So we have a Westerner who was an eye-witness, who observed taekkyon and described it. That there are written Korean sources need not be mentioned, although I can come up with those if you are interested. In addition, there are paintings of taekkyon, one of which also shows traditional Korean wrestling (ssirum), and as I mentioned previously, there is also a photo of children playing taekkyon from the 19th century. If you actually choose to research taekkyon, you will find that it is substantially different from anything the Japanese produced. Robert Young and Yung Ouyang both wrote excellent articles about the art that you can find in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. Let me know if you are interested, and I'll let you know which volumes and issues.
11/8/05 8:56 PM
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anodize
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Edited: 08-Nov-05
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Oops, his name is actually Stewart Cullin. Look him up!
11/9/05 10:48 AM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 09-Nov-05
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I'm quite familiar with the works of Stewart Culin, and his books about world cultures, thank you. My point is that even in his work, he makes no assertion that it is an Ancient Martial Art. As I stated in an above post, I admire the Korean for trying to reclaim and even re-imagine a lot of lost cultural Arts, this is admirable, but to contrive tales of magical monks and other fairy tales is a bit much to swallow.
11/9/05 4:50 PM
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Vinyasana
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Edited: 09-Nov-05
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I've seen the demonstrations of Taekkyon available online, I must state that they appear to be unique in their appearance, something of a TaiChi/Taekwondo kicking art combined with short dance like motions. I also like the garb that the practitioners wear. I am also aware that the government consider this art which resurfaced in the 1980's as a National Treasure with regards to the Korean Culture. I think that this "martial art" may be an attempt by the goverment to shed off the bonds of colonization leftover by the Japanese. I applaud the effort and wish them much success.
11/11/05 4:33 PM
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Naughty Gorilla
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Edited: 11-Nov-05 04:40 PM
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Ssriuem comes from Sumo ? I'm pretty sure Sumo came from Ssriuem and/or chinese wrestling as they both predate sumo. Also, the katana was based on a korean sword (though korean and japanese owe smithing knowledge to china) vinyasana you are railing at a straw dummy, btw.
4/10/06 11:07 AM
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TrevorRice
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Edited: 10-Apr-06
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http://www.taekkyon.de/html/en/tn_videos.html Taekkyon is very different from Tae Kwon Do and is a very very old style. It was not made up in this century but is definatly not the original taekkyon. It is a good style that has (arguably) more practical application then WTF tae kwon do. Taekkyon has takedowsn which are very effective.
4/12/06 4:01 PM
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TrevorRice
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Edited: 12-Apr-06
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I trained in Taekkyon in korea for about a little over a year- ten years ago. Recently, I have started to get back into it trainging with my uncle and other siblings. I have to say that it is a good style and that it has very effective takedowns. People may complain that the kicks are not as powerful as the thai round kick. ( for which i have to agree) but the kicks are very unorthodox -especially the inverted roundhouse kick-staple taekkyon kick. I would say that the kicks setup the takedowns. This style is a very very good compliment to BJJ. If you are flexible this a nice style to try out.

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