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AcademicGround >> Anyone with a psych graduate degre


3/23/06 12:13 PM
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Buddhadev
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Edited: 23-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Ted, thanks! I like your POV on ADHD diagnoses. The Szasz/Scientology thing is a sort of a "enemy of my enemy" alliance. He's personally an atheist. Thanks for your posts. Very enlightening stuff. It's nice to see that the field can be justified without the smug nannying tone a lot of shrinks take.
3/23/06 12:51 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 23-Mar-06
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LOL - thanks. Without stirring the pot too much - I find that personal political orientation has a lot to do with the "nannying tone." Not to start a flame war or anything, but frankly I have found that the more politically liberal the psych, the more they get off on telling others what to do. And psychology is perhaps one of the most liberal professions in the country, so when you run into the few conservative ones (like me), it's surprising to see how hands-off we are (in terms of giving diagnoses, telling people what they have to do with their lives, etc.). I find I am much less judgmental (both in terms of actual diagnosis and with regards to personal choices) than my co-workers who appear cut from the same mold as, say, GrapplerHK :-) I guess you could say I am not only politically conservative, I am clinically conservative :-P Having said all that, go figure - Dr. Phil is as red a red-stater as there can be, and he practically jerks off at the thought of telling people how to live their lives ;-) (I rationalize that by saying he gets paid a CRAPLOAD of money to do it, he doesn't do it for its own sake)
3/23/06 11:32 PM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 23-Mar-06
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Ted, firstly thanks for your response. The California School of Professional Psychology is accredited, though (on a side note, they are affiliated with Alliant International University). What is a "professional school" anyway? Also, is it common practice for an in person interview to be required of ALL applicants before acceptance? I know someone who paid $500 to fly across the country for his interview at that school.
3/24/06 1:19 AM
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Buddhadev
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Edited: 24-Mar-06
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Ted, you're my kind of people! :)
3/24/06 9:32 AM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 24-Mar-06
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Well, accreditation is usually through APA (although you may want to check on that to be absolutely sure), and all that really means is that they teach "proper" curriculum - at least one class on ethics, one on therapy, two on assessment, etc., etc. There are *plenty* of schools that are accredited that have horrible odds of getting their students into internships following grad school, so that's really a minimum level of standards. A "professional school" is literally a building where you go to study one thing. While a few prof. schools have university affiliation, most don't, and there are numerous drawbacks to that. If you go to a university psych program, you have access to a library, you have a big support staff, and most importantly you have access to other disciplines - if I want to learn how to write grants, I can stroll over to the English dept; if I want to study brain anatomy, I can ask the bio dept. if I can audit a class; if I'm interested in the insanity defense, perhaps I can ask the law school or even pre-law faculty if I can learn from them, etc., etc. A professional school will likely be missing those things, but then again, I do know of at least one that has major university backing. It's rare to get that, though, as universities only like people that can make them money - i.e., researchers who write grants and get external funding. Professional schools rarely do that. But don't get me wrong - I'm not saying they're all bad. I've known solid folks who came from them. To me it's simply an odds game. When I applied to grad school 10+ years ago, the average GRE for Ph.D. university programs was ~1250; for professional schools it was closer to 1150. If you drop that zero off the end, that's a very rough proxy for IQ. Would you rather go to a hospital where the docs averaged an IQ of 125 or 115? That's just odds again, though, there were folks in my program who had close to 1150 (but the average was 1320 my first year), and I know at least one guy who got a 1400 and who went to the Chicago professional school. There's some anger at the prof schools on the part of the university programs, too - there is the perception (IMO, correct) that they are flooding the market with hundreds of less well-trained clinicians and thus affecting everyone else's bottom line....
3/25/06 2:38 PM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 25-Mar-06
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Thank you for your input; it is very much appreciated. I'm going to make sure the person in question sees your post.
3/25/06 9:55 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 25-Mar-06
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If I were advising the person, I'd make sure they got the APA manual on graduate programs - it tells you the number of applicants to each place in the last few years, the number accepted, the average entering GRE and GPA, the % of folks who got internships upon finishing, etc. - stuff you really should know before applying.

And yes, interviews are *very* common, and just like the business world, if you decline to go, you move to the bottom of the list for admittance.

I had some absolute fucking bastards at a certain Veterans' Hospital tell me they shitcanned my app for internship after I arranged an interview, but two days before it I called to cancel. The faculty consensus was that since I dropped the interview, I clearly wasn't interested, and they only wanted people who were passionately interested.

They kinda didn't pay attention to the small point of info that I provided the clinical director when I called to cancel - on the same day of the interview I would be ATTENDING MY MOTHER'S FUNERAL.

I will hate those motherfuckers with a passion until my dying day, and should I ever run into anyone from that hospital, I will be happy to inform them of that fact.

3/26/06 6:15 PM
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ironmongoose
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Edited: 26-Mar-06
Member Since: 04/17/2002
Posts: 3316
Oh dear, this thread has come a long way in a short time. Logic Rules is a well-known troll. http://mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=722171&FID=2 http://mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=664054&FID=2 I'm glad that people like Ted Bennett are around, because I would just not have the sheer patience to refute people who argue from ignorance and are as profoundly ignorant as Logic Rules. *bows deeply to Dr. Bennett*
3/26/06 8:30 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 26-Mar-06
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*bows halfway, then slaps Ironmongoose in head*

*says in Bruce Lee/ Mr. Miyagi voice*

"Look eye! Always look eye! Never take eye off opponent!"

:-P

3/26/06 10:50 PM
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ironmongoose
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Edited: 26-Mar-06
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Buddhadev is correct about the "enemy of my enemy" thing. Szasz is a libertarian. He used to do events with Scientologists, he co-founded some anti-psychiatry group with them, but he's of a totally different mentality. They made us read a TON of Szasz in undergrad. He's a smart man. Some of his stuff isn't too too far out. (I disagree with it but wouldn't call it absurd.) However, some of it is just plain silly. He is too dogmatic when it comes to schizophrenia not being a biological disease (which is absurd--as Ted said, he's kind of living in the past), anti-medication, and anti-coercion. If a person is a danger to himself or others, coercive practices such as involuntary hospitalization have a proper place in psychiatry, provided there are proper checks and balances, much as coercion should be permitted to police. Some mentally ill people exhibit dangerous behaviour. Szasz himself still maintains a private psychiatry practice, I've heard. Sorry to hear about the fuckups at the VA hospital man. Watch out for Logic Rules. To quote him, he has a two-year Associate degree, and "already know(s) a lot". He also took one psych course, and didn't think it was that cool. You should see him when he's talking about economics.
3/27/06 1:21 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 27-Mar-06
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No worries - at first I thought he was just stupid, but he gave away the trolling angle rather quickly. Apparently he's not even good at that, either ;-) Szasz's private practice is in "problems with daily life" if you look at his website, which to me sounds suspiciously like either mild depression or else adjustment disorders - hardly the stuff by which one becomes well-acquainted with major medical illness.
3/27/06 5:14 PM
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ironmongoose
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Edited: 27-Mar-06
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The reason Szasz talks like that is because he believes in a strict body-mind dualism. He likens a person to a car. He says that a person can have two problems when they're trying to travel somewhere. One is that your car isn't running right, in which you need a mechanic. The other is that you don't know where you're going, in which case you need a travel agent. He then accuses psychiatrists of being travel agents (counselors/life guides) pretending to be mechanics (doctors). So when he sells his services, he clearly identifies himself as being in the "travel agent" category. Problem is that this does not flush with current knowledge of mind-brain research, such as findings of how CBT counseling can change neurotransmitters in the frontal lobes. As you've implied, he's totally out of touch with the actual scientific findings in psychiatry, and basically his criticisms are as ignorant as those of a Logic Rules or an EVILYOSHIDA, someone whose criticisms of the field are based on the fact that they really don't know what psychology or psychiatry IS.
3/27/06 6:37 PM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 27-Mar-06
Member Since: 06/13/2004
Posts: 982
Ted Bennett, I have a ton of questions for you, that would be great if you answered. First a little about myself. I am a philosophy major about to graduate this may. I got into philosophy because I thought it would give me insight on the best way to live life(basically I was a big fan of existentialism) however, I soon realized this was actually more of a field of psychology than philosophy and that all the existentialists suck. I took a few psych classes and got A's in all of them. I found social psychology to be the most interesting of them all. Now I am about to graduate and I have no career path at all. I consider psychology to be sort of a hobby and I love social and personality psychology. I am thinking of going for a PhD in Personality Psychology So my questions to you are.. What kind of work do personality psychologists do? What kind of jobs would there be outside academia? What are the chances of getting a PhD and NOT finding a job?
3/27/06 6:47 PM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 27-Mar-06
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I'm also thinking about Research..what are my options if I wanted to do that?
3/27/06 9:25 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 27-Mar-06
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If I hadn't gone into clinical, social was my next best bet - there is *so* much fascinating stuff in there.

You apparently realize, though, that with a social psych Ph.D. you're pretty much limited to academia, although you will be *expected* to do tons of research as an academic. So, I'm not too up on jobs outside of universities, but if research is your thing, the university setting is tailor-made for you.

There are a goodly number of jobs (I don't even look for pers.-based jobs, and I still get tons of e-mails about openings), although you will most likely not be able to get one down the street - if you're willing to relocate, odds that you will get a job are fairly good. If you want an idea about what's out there, try this:

http://www.psyccareers.com/index.cfm?action=job.search&js=1&int=0&us=1&st=&ws=&key=&keytype=or&jobsort=1&maxrows=50&CFID=1474795&CFTOKEN=58865756

Learning how to do research is punishing as a student, but if you get a good line of study going, and most importantly learn how to write grants, you can clear 6 figures. And tenure is some *serious* job security if you can get it....

3/27/06 11:43 PM
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sanguine cynic
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Edited: 27-Mar-06
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Well here's the thing, I think Research might sound fun, now I only have one class more that I need to take to graduate. I haven't taken a research class before and I have an option of taking one in May(2.5 hours every single day) but if i take that research class it not only starts at 8am but I also have to take a Stat class as a corequisite, for which I do not need credit for. Or I could just pick any other class that the university offers instead of research and stat. I CAN'T MAKE UP MY MIND!!! Now I'm a little confused..is there a separate distinct grad program for research psych or not? What is the benefit of getting say..an M.A?
3/28/06 3:37 AM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 28-Mar-06
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"They kinda didn't pay attention to the small point of info that I provided the clinical director when I called to cancel - on the same day of the interview I would be ATTENDING MY MOTHER'S FUNERAL." Not to be defending them, but maybe the clinical director just didn't tell the faculty? Thanks again for your input. The person who was considering going to the Professional School of Psych in CA told me that he really wasn't impressed with the labs and other facilities available there. He is not coming straight from undergrad, he has a Master's in Sociology from a very well respected (and well funded) school here in the northeast. It's doubtful he'll go there.
3/28/06 9:14 AM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 28-Mar-06
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"maybe the clinical director just didn't tell the faculty? " That's the most likely explanation - but then, when they were having their discussions about who to invite for jobs, don't you think that's the sort of thing that should come up? ;-) I'm certainly not assuming they were so vicious that they wanted me to skip the funeral - I'm assuming they were so incompetent and disorganized that they didn't know their asses from a hole in the ground. And Gortiz - if you haven't had any research classes, don't fret - if you truly wanted to do the psych Ph.D. thing, you would likely have to do just one extra semester for your classwork. You'd have to take a class in stats, one in research design, and one in advanced social psych, and that's pretty much it. The big stumbling block is that folks who do research Ph.D. spots usually come in having done some research already - they go check around the psych faculty and see who's doing projects and see if they can piggyback on the faculty member's stuff (help administer tests, help do lit reviews, etc.). That's one of the first things they look at when considering your application. That, and a GRE of 1300+ don't hurt :-P
3/28/06 12:29 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 28-Mar-06
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Ooops - forgot to add - clinical and non-clinical (e.g., social, cognitive, biological, etc.) departments in psychology are indeed separate, so be careful where you apply. Most schools that have decent program and 10K+ students will have both. The big difference in applying is that for non-clinical, you basically apply looking to work with *one* person - and you kiss their ass in the interview, read up on their research, ask how (not if) you can dovetail your resaech interests with theirs, etc. Most (but not all) clinical programs will not hold it against you if you just want to attend without having one specific faculty member whose jock (or panties) you wish to swing from...even though it does help a bit ;-) And a MA/MS in psych is next to worthless for research purposes. In clinical you can still get paid for doing therapy with a MA/MS, but you'l still have to have a Ph.D. level supervisor to sign off on your stuff if you wish to collect from Medicare/Medicaid/most insurance companies. You don't need a co-signature if all you take is cash, obviously :-P
3/30/06 1:33 PM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 30-Mar-06
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It really was NOT me when I said a friend was considering going other :0) Ted Bennett for AcademicGround moderator- he's got my vote.
3/30/06 6:15 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 30-Mar-06
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LOL - sorry about that - I was using "you" in the general hypothetical sense, I wasn't trying to imply you were asking about a "friend" who was really you ;-P And thanks for the rec, but I'd probably make the worst mod on the planet - my gut instinct would be to ban every other post, and so in guarding against that impulse I'd allow a free-for-all that old-school Mousel's would be proud of ;-)
3/31/06 3:25 PM
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WEB
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Edited: 31-Mar-06
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got a question for you TEd, my friends and I talk about dreams. Some of us have experienced weird/realistic type dreams. we have desciribed the day after the dream that we feel weird for part of the day. What do you know about this subject? Can what we dream affect how we feel the next day?????
3/31/06 4:05 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 31-Mar-06
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Define "weird." Dreams can affect what you think about, easily - if you have a nasty nightmare you may think about it all day, esp. if it's something you actually lived through previously (e.g., a bad car wreck). Or are you talking about s/t like sleep paralysis - where you wake up from a dream but can't move? (it usually lasts only a few seconds, longer is a clinical disorder) Or to get even more far-fetched - some epileptics have that experience, but I'm betting you and your buds aren't having frequent seizures ;-)
3/31/06 5:10 PM
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WEB
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Edited: 31-Mar-06
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weird would relate the nightmare thing. You just feel "different" right when you wake up and a few more hours during the day. not paralysis.
4/24/06 3:55 AM
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FightFan424
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Edited: 24-Apr-06
Member Since: 04/10/2003
Posts: 273
ttt

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