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Weapons UnderGround >> M-14 vs. BAR


12/30/05 4:16 PM
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shovelhook
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Edited: 30-Dec-05
Member Since: 01/04/2004
Posts: 242
 
I read and see a lot about the BAR with a reverence that makes it sound like the deadliest handheld weapon of all time. And as a big fan of 30's crime history, I have a lot of respect for it's abilities especially compared with the Thompson. But I really think of the M-14 as superior in most respects. The rifles are very similar. One is a 'machine rifle', the other a full auto capable battle rifle. both fire from a 20 rd. magazine, the difference in .308 and .30-06 is negligable. The biggest difference is in weight (IIRC the original, slimmed down WW1 BAR was upwards of 18lbs., the enormous WW11 and civilian Monitor models being much heavier). While that may be a handfull to lug around for a soldier, one positive aspect is the capability (or ease, rather) for aimed full auto fire from the shoulder. I have never heard one way or the other about the M-14, but FAL's, G3's, and especially Galil .308's are notoriously uncontrollable on full auto, and the M-14 wood straightline stock without pistol grip could be even worse. Still, there is a lot to be said for portability. The M-16A2 is a large gun these days but is dwarfed by the M-14. IMO though being significantly lighter, shorter (except Clyde Barrow's custom 1918's, which concealed under a coat and were manueverable inside a vehicle), and smaller makes them more desirable and combat useful. In many ways the M-14 is a hybrid BAR/Garand so it can be said it is more advanced. On a side note, while my favorite weapon is the urban carbine, there is a lot to be said for the the diversity of a .308 battle rifle. Outside the confines of a city, this is the multi-tasker. An M1A with scope fills many roles.
1/3/06 1:06 PM
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Dogmeat 1
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Edited: 03-Jan-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 3365
I'm not sure why the BAR has been praised so much in recent documentaries because it appears from many reports to be a failure as a battlefield weapon even if the design was solid. the main problems I've heard is that is was too heavy to be fired from the shoulder but the gun was still too light overall for automatic fire (the same problem as the FAL, M14 and G3). Even when fired from a bipod its small clip size, lack of a belt feed and quick interchangable barrel (although one model did feature this after WWII) made it far less effective than true LMGs like the Bren ,MG34 and MG42. for single shot fire and occasional bursts M14's seems to be much more effective and the BAR just wasn't worthwhile as a pure automatic support fire weapon.
1/3/06 9:05 PM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 03-Jan-06
Member Since: 09/29/2002
Posts: 7127
The BAR wasn't an individual rifleman's weapon like the M14. The BAR was a squad weapon. Like a SAW or a M60 or M240...
1/4/06 11:36 AM
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krept
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Edited: 04-Jan-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 4317
Agree with all of the above. Even if the BAR were in .308, it would have been/has been replaced by other weapons that fill the role better such as the M60. Even though the M14 was replaced by the average GI by the M16, it still is seen on the battlefield today in several different forms.
1/7/06 2:47 PM
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steyr_223
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Edited: 07-Jan-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 9682
Attention Prisoners of the Peoples Republic of California! There is a loophole in the current California Assault Weapons ban. It seems you can get "unlisted" AR and AK recievers for use in building 10round fixed mag semiauto rifles, legally. However, the CA DOJ is planning to ban them sometime in 2006 since it is very easy to convert these to accept detachable mags...When CA DOJ bans these fix 10 round rifles, owners will have a window to register them as AWs...Once your rifle is registered technically you can convert it to the normal detachable mag setup. You can then use those 20,30 and 100round mags that you have been sitting on since the 2000 ban.. Here is the thread I am following..

Legal California .223 self loading rifle discussion

1/9/06 11:50 AM
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krept
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Edited: 09-Jan-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 4328
VERY interesting info
1/9/06 11:36 PM
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steyr_223
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Edited: 09-Jan-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 9699
1/9/06 11:55 PM
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RoninGear
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Edited: 09-Jan-06
Member Since: 09/29/2002
Posts: 7198
cool...
1/30/06 3:36 PM
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shovelhook
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Edited: 30-Jan-06 04:05 PM
Member Since: 01/04/2004
Posts: 247
I was thinking a little more on what would be the ideal all around rifle. I've always thought the urban carbine .223 filled the most roles in the most common anti-personell situations (could replace shotgun, submachinegun, and assault rifle), while a .308 battle rifle with good optics could fill in for the typical assault rifle, a scout rifle as well as sniper, and double as a big game hunting rifle. However I was thinking about the smith arms custom K-gun M1A. Short overall length but sporting the gas system of an M60 LMG (extends as long as the barrel). The barrel is only like 11.5 with welded on vortex flash. That is a pretty short barrel and would no doubt cut down the range, however the gas system makes it so contollable, the M14's altered in this manner are so easy to use it can be fired full auto from the shoulder with no (as the magazine claimed) rise at the muzzle. This weapon has interesting possibilties, and barring the extreme muzzle blast would make a nice cqb rifle. I was also thinking about the AR-10's and SA-58's now available in .243. I know there is also the 6.8 SPC out there to be more powerful than the .223 yet still in the compact AR-15 platform. But I'm sure a .243 would be quite a bit less expensive to shoot, ammo easier to find, etc. Maybe a carbine version of the AR-10 or SA-58 (or even Remington 7600 w/10 rd. mags) could be the ultimate multitasking rifle? What do you guys think?
2/2/06 12:57 PM
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Lofland
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Edited: 02-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 6271
From what I've read of that 6.8 SPC on the ballistics forum at www.tacticalforums.com, even though the gurus all like it, it seems like the .243 would do just fine and is a much more pracical alternative for people who aren't satisfied with the .223.

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