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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> guard vs the spear


2/2/06 1:26 AM
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tredecjai
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Edited: 02-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/30/2006
Posts: 1
 
just a quick question to the forum in general to see what the response is..... do you think it is better to train someone in a guard or i suppose you could call it a shell defence (hands up guarding head and body..ie boxers cover)and teach them to counter after a strike has been blocked...or teach them to use the spear straight off. I know there will be all variables but lets just use a simple example... your standing in a club a guy comes up swings a punch ...what is the first move guard or spear ? lets throw in the variables..you have had a drink or two....your distracted...you dont expect it.. lets discuss dml
2/2/06 4:28 AM
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Adam LaClair
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Edited: 02-Feb-06 04:34 AM
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 3173
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I find it interesting that your first and only post is made on this (Tony's) forum.  I hope this isn't a lame attempt to somehow use a "SPEAR question" to attempt to discredit Tony's work, as some have tried in the past.

Based on the scenario you describe, there isn't enough information to answer your question.  One of the problems with self-defense is that "a simple example" is usually TOO simple.  Who walks up to a person and swings a punch straight away?  There WILL be what Tony calls "pre-contact cues" for you to pick up on, that will determine your own behavior and "defensive readiness" much more than choosing a "do I use block A or B to counter punch C" type of equation.  As Tony teaches us to question, "What happened BEFORE what happened?"  Is this a stranger?  Do you know him vaguely, or perhaps well?  Did you insult him an hour ago?  Break up with his sister? Sleep with his wife? Spill his drink while he was in the bathroom?  WHAT IS IT that is giving him cause to take a swing? 

These variables all count FAR more in creating the proper visualization for a realistic scenario than what you have described.  It gives meaning to his intentions, and his intentions control his actions.  It is off from these intentions that our body language is based, and that is what we can often pick up on very quickly. I've been in fights before, and I was a bartender for 4 years.  I have NEVER seen someone just walk up to someone and take a swing without some kind of prior provocation, or at least a moment of verbal conflict prior to the swing.  The person on the "defense" always had time to put up their hands and start walking backwards and TALK to the guy if he saw him coming.  If the attacker was truly intent on beating his ass, it was usually a running tackle or a sucker-punch, not a "guy comes up and swings a punch" scenario.  On the other hand, if it was a sucker-punch ambush or you were distracted and didn't see it coming (again - no verbal communication?), then your "guard" position and the tactical SPEAR are both eliminated as immediate counter-offensive options (i.e. you probably got HIT, so where are you at now both mentally and physically?).  The SPEAR "system" could come into play, but that is too broad a topic to cover in such a limited media as a text-only forum.

If you are being sincere with your question, than I hope all of this makes sense.

Adam LaClair

2/2/06 11:38 AM
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tredecjai
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Edited: 02-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/30/2006
Posts: 2
let me rephrase what i said mr. laclair. the question i was so trying to ask( and there is enough information this time i hope )was and i must admit probably didnt explain very well ...is it better to start training a person in a boxers guard or shell defence using the flinch response or train them directly with the spear technique. the situation i described is a common one ...yes people do walk up to people and just hit them for no reason or at least no logical reason that is. so what is the physical response. so after the person has been struck or is slow in responding to the hit due to alcohol or just the unexpected is it better to go straight to a spear tactic or a guard and then spear... and in teaching the technique what form of gradient learning/response do you follow. and no i am not trying to lamely deface tony blauer i was just interested in the response as i sincerely believe in the spear technology and am curious as a teacher myself. sincerely dml
2/2/06 5:03 PM
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Sean Blair
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Edited: 02-Feb-06
Member Since: 05/28/2004
Posts: 14
DML, From reading your post, it sounds to me like you're asking whether or not it is more sound to train a complex motorskill in the "big bang" moment of a fight vs something that your body wants to do naturally. The way that you describe your guard, it sounds like something that the defender will have to think about in some way. The beauty of the SPEAR system is that it uses what your body wants to do naturally prior to any training. Anyone who has studied the SPEAR system in any depth will recognize the combative applications for the flinch, conversion of the flinch, etc. As you may already know, the SPEAR system is a three dimensional system that is very heavy into the emotional and psychological aspects of the situation. When placing the defender in a purely defensive position, it also places them in a victim mindset. One of the goals of the SPEAR research is to allow the "good guy" to make the victim to victor change ASAP. As Adam mentioned, the answer to this question can not be done justice in this limited format. The answer encompasses many aspects of the SPEAR research and to better understand the answer to your question, I would reccomend purchasing a video or two from Tony. A list of videos available, along with a brief description, is available on Tony's website. Also for more information on any videos, or to place an order you can call Tony's office at 1-877-773-2748. If you truly wish to understand, which I believe you do, it will greatly benefit you to check out a video or train with a PDR coach in person. Good luck! Sean Blair Oh, Tony's website is: www.tonyblauer.com
2/2/06 10:34 PM
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tredecjai
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Edited: 02-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/30/2006
Posts: 3
thanks for that sean. i must admit i was taken back abit by the paranoid response by mr.laclair buts thats okay we all get a little defensive sometimes and i must admit i have even bitten off a few heads in my life in defence of friends or mentors. so sean when you are training a student do you start teaching the spear technique straight off and do you use any other forms of acclimation training to decrease the response of the student in returning back to a shell form of defence when under pressure. so what is your process or gradient training as i mentioned in previoius verb in developing this response. remembering it is natural sometimes for a person when struck or caught off guard to go to a shell defence or i suppose a standing foetal position. guys all i am doing is discussing responses. its like taekwondo you have a set curriculum but each teacher can and will teach in a different manner or order...but in the end it all ends up taekwondo. so have you guys noticed a change in your methods as most of you seem to be of an eclectic background, especially when you have implemented spear technology into your system ....has it changed the order of things. dml
2/3/06 1:46 AM
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Sean Blair
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Edited: 03-Feb-06 01:49 AM
Member Since: 05/28/2004
Posts: 15
DML, Well, you have asked another interesting question that I can give a better answer to. As far as a acclimation training goes, Tony has developed a very specific drill especially for that purpose. This drill is called Emotional Climate Training, and is used for several reasons. The main puropse of ECT is to get the good guy to move faster and sooner in the fight. The way that this is accomplished is by examining when it's safe to move, pre-contact cues, etc. This is an essential drill to the SPEAR system and the results are incredible. The shell form of defense that you keep referring to is essentially a primal flinch...meaning that you have little or no awareness of the stimulus until the last possible moment, and your body moves to protect the command center. It sounds essentially like you want to learn how to teach the SPEAR and if you're truly interested in learning how and becoming certified to teach this material, I strongly suggest that you investigate the PDR program. There is information about that on the website as well. Train hard, stay safe. Sean
2/3/06 1:52 AM
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Adam LaClair
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Edited: 03-Feb-06
Member Since: 03/23/2002
Posts: 3178
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tredecjai,

If my response came across as a bit harsh, then please accept my apologies.  My response was not "paranoid" however...... there HAVE been numerous people over the 6+ years that I've watched and participated in this forum that have come on here with the sole purpose of trying to detract from Mr. Blauer's work.  And they usually create a new screen name to do so - which is identifiable by the extremely low post count (usually "1") that is shown right below their screen name.  The other thing they do is have a screen name that is very "anonymous," as opposed to using their "real" name (as you'll notice Sean and I both do).  Using (or at least signing our posts) with our true names shows sincerity, and makes us look like more than a bunch of cartoon characters "playing" on the internet.  Real life business people and real life students all use real life names....... to remain anonymous through the use of an alias in any other endeavor in life invites suspicion, and on this particular forum, the same holds true do to the myriad attacks upon Tony Blauer's success, research, and personal character over the years.  Tony often asks people to post their real names just for that reason.

I hope you now can see why I was initially suspicious...... and again, I apologize.

Adam LaClair

2/3/06 3:31 AM
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tredecjai
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Edited: 03-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/30/2006
Posts: 6
thanx fellas. it is all cool adam. by the way i was just keen to see or read the different ways that instructors like yourselves teach and the manner you teach spear technology to come up with the same ending. i have been using something similar for many years maybe not as articulate as tonys and certainly not as professionally presented. i was seriously hoping to read some personal(your personal teaching experiences)observations or takes on your training as per the reponse scenario but thats cool. anyway my initals dml stand for deane m lawler and tredecjai are the first three initials for all my kids. sorry for the secret agent disguise lol i have been known to be a bit controversial at times lol sorry tony deane
2/3/06 7:23 PM
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ahlong
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Edited: 03-Feb-06 07:23 PM
Member Since: 11/24/2004
Posts: 29
Hi Deane, I believe you're already quite familiar with Tony personally? - I've read interviews you'd done with him for a martial arts magazine here in Australia. Respectfully, Trevor Wilcox PDR Team Sydney, AU.
2/3/06 10:52 PM
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tredecjai
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Edited: 03-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/30/2006
Posts: 9
hey trev, yeah mate i have known tony for quite a few years top bloke and am hoping before the year is out i will be in the states to catch up. so maybe you can give me some feedback about the introduction of spear technology to your training. you see i think the way tony has put his brilliant methodology together in a free flowing format gives each trainer a wide scope for interpretation and results. i was just keen to see that after it being around for awhile whether it has changed the format or arrangement in training someone in self defence or martial arts. in other words have you just added in the spear to your system or has it changed the arrangement of the training process? like do you now teach the spear first and then footwork and striking last or some other order? how does it differ now from the original martial arts or kickboxing ,mma teaching or training methods? or in other words "has it changed the order of things" dml
2/4/06 5:25 AM
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ahlong
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Edited: 04-Feb-06 05:39 AM
Member Since: 11/24/2004
Posts: 30
Hey Deane, In terms of a before and after, I guess you could say my 'before' curriculum was jkd-influenced (though not jkd), i.e. just very eclectic - we kickboxed, we grappled, amongst other things - if I learnt anything and thought it was effective, I would incorporate it, or otherwise I just saw something and wanted to try it out, so we'd try out. As an "after shot", in terms of PDR / SPEAR System Technology, Tony has given us a couple different options as to integration into our current methods, #1 Stand Alone Program, #2 Bridge. As a stand alone program, PDR incorporates the SPEAR and other Extreme Close-Quarter Tactics (elbows, forearms, palms, headbutts, knees, bites etc.), which all are gross motor tactics making them more reliable under stress. Add that to all the psychology involved and there are many, many layers to PDR unto itself. Personally, I've used the Bridge method of integration, meaning the SPEAR is a bridge to my current method. And I've done this simply due to scheduling reasons - I teach one group class a week only, and think there is tremendous benefit in still training in the other eclectic stuff, so am adding the PDR/SPEAR program to the mix. I teach the SPEAR first, in light of the 3 Phases of Combat: Pre, Mid, Post, the SPEAR enables you weather the ambush moment (pre-fight) to get to your Point of Domination (P.O.D.) (mid fight), which once you get there, is when you are able to transition to fine and complex motor skills such as striking. Getting to the P.O.D. is also a transition from being off-balance (emotionally, psychologically and physically) to on-balance. And it's only when you're on-balance that any of the other fine and complex motor skills come into play or are even feasible. Personally, in addition to Tony's Close-Quarter Tactics, and coming from the JKD influence, I find that alot of the stuff from Kali/Jun Fan, once modified, will blend really nicely with the SPEAR System. In a nutshell, the SPEAR is the base and everything else I do stems from there. Saying that however, if someone came to me simply wanting to learn some self-defence, all I would teach is PDR / SPEAR. I would not teach them the other stuff - I keep that for those who want ongoing training in a martial art format. Hope that answers your question. Trev
2/5/06 11:11 PM
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48
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Edited: 05-Feb-06 11:12 PM
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Posts: 21
Deane: I do not know you, but I do know Coach Blauer (Tony), as well as Adam and Sean. My response is going to be based solely on what I have read here on the forum and what I have learned from Coach Blauer through video, the internet, phone conversations and in person interaction and training. Oh, and through real life experience. "your standing in a club a guy comes up swings a punch ...what is the first move guard or spear?" If this is the scenario, you don't do either: you flinch; the guy misses; the guy lands and you get knocked out; the guys partially lands and you get hit a little; the guy slips has he throws you slip as you flinch and he misses, shall I go on? I am not trying to be cute, but you cannot script a fight. What you can do is research how real fights happen (SPEAR/PDR research). Investigate what the body wants to do prior to any training and see if that has a combative application (the SPEAR/PDR systems). Train "off balance on purpose" (the SPEAR/PDR systems). You can dissect how real fights happen and then try to replicate each part (the SPEAR system/Ballistic Micro Fight process). You can embrace "overkill mentality": want more, know more, do more (the SPEAR/PDR system), and then embrace the idea that luck favors the prepared. I personally teach civilians and firefighters weekly; what do I start with . . . my own personal understanding of how real fights happen! What do I start the students with . . . an exploration of what their real fight might look like (this depends on who they are, where they work, where they hang out, what there hobbies are, etc., etc.) Please do not read this and think I am dodging your question; study this answer, along with Adam and Sean's answers. Again, I don't not know you or your relationship with Coach so if your question is really directed at how the SPEAR/PDR System's have changed/evolved over time I suggest you contact Tony directly. If your question is to really explore what your options might be in the scenario you gave, I suggest you find a certified SPEAR or PDR Coach and have them help you find out in real time, real space, with real contact. Otherwise it is all just theory here in cyberspace ;-) With Safety In Mind, Rob Gebhart, PDR Coach BTCMS PDR Team
2/6/06 12:50 AM
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JoeSk
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Edited: 06-Feb-06
Member Since: 08/29/2002
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Qouting your post: "just a quick question to the forum in general to see what the response is..... do you think it is better to train someone in a guard or i suppose you could call it a shell defence (hands up guarding head and body..ie boxers cover)and teach them to counter after a strike has been blocked...or teach them to use the spear straight off. I know there will be all variables but lets just use a simple example... your standing in a club a guy comes up swings a punch ...what is the first move guard or spear ? lets throw in the variables..you have had a drink or two....your distracted...you dont expect it.. lets discuss dml" First off there is a difference between the SPEAR Tactic and The SPEAR System. The tactic being a part of the sytem. So I am training them in the System which includes the Tactic. The first paragraph of you question seems to only be in comparing the SPEAR Tactic with a boxing tactic. So within the System you could possibly be training them to do both depending on a lot of variables when one is going to be used. Secondly, as Rob stated with the scenario you described you are more than likely going to flinch. Unless you are caught totally unaware in which case you are going to get hit. Your Awareness along with the Suddness, Agressiveness and Proximity of the attack will determine where you are at in the fight. Thirdly, your conversion of that flinch is part of the science behind the SPEAR System. In your scenario for sake of arguement let us say that your flinch had your hands coming up to cover your head. As you fight to re-gain balance mentally, emotionally and physically you will be able to access you complex motor skills once you are in control of your self and your attacker. Being in a ring and having your hands in a as you state "shell defense" which may look similar to a flinch is different than having been suddenly caught off guard and having your survival reflex protect your head. One is in a controlled environement with the flow and rythm off sparring, you have awareness. The other is in an un-controlled environement where as you stated where distracted, unaware. Not there to fight, but to socialize. In the former you are accessing a skill as part of the activity in which you are engaging (Could be a left hook, double leg or a Tactical SPEAR) . In the latter you are trying to figure out what just happened and protect yourself. As you gain controll of yourself and the attacker you could/might access the same options as in the former. Joe Skovira
2/6/06 4:15 AM
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ahlong
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Edited: 06-Feb-06
Member Since: 11/24/2004
Posts: 31
just back-tracking a little bit, relating to Adam's first post, specifically the point about people attacking another without any specific pre-contact history, unfortunately it has indeed happened here in Sydney. In the recent "race riots" in Sydney, a middle aged woman had gone to check on her elderly neighbour and a young guy of Middle Eastern descent had jumped on her car and smashed her across the head with a baseball bat while yelling some profanity along the lines of "this is our f***ing country too". It was a completely unprovoked attack, and she was attacked simply because she was Australian - there was no specific pre-contact history between the assailant and the woman. And this was just one occurrence - there had been plenty of others of a similar nature. Mind you it is a very rare occurrence indeed, and it is an exception to the rule, and not the rule itself. In one way, there were plenty of general pre-contact indicators, specifically for the woman as she happened to be living in one of the areas where this riot was taking place - the general pre-contact indicators being that it was all over the news, and everyone in Sydney knew about it. So for the lady, it could have been predicted - and whether there was an apathy/denial moment, or whether she was courageous enough to go out in the midst of it all to check on the elderly neighbour, I don't know. I would guess the latter. Regardless, the attack was unannounced and was not motivated by anything other than race hatred with absolutely no specific pre-contact history between the two parties involved. Some food for thought. Trevor Wilcox
2/6/06 9:01 PM
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tredecjai
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Edited: 06-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/30/2006
Posts: 10
thanx trevor and joe that was a great response and the one i was looking for. to the others rob and sean,adam thanx as well.... no rob i dont think i need to do a pdr course but thanx anyway and as far as "real fights are concerned' i think i might have a little experience in that area but i appreciate the insights. and also the scenario i gave was meant as a simple example to start the conversation and was not meant to be taken literally and if you read the posts after the first one the inference is made quite clear. the response from trevor is what i was looking for and if you guys read the posts carefully you will see what i was asking for was.. has the incorporation of the spear tactic,system or whatever changed the "order of things" or in other words has it changed the way you teach your students. to me the brilliance of tonys system is that it can be added to any system and give the appearance that the spear technology was always a part of it from the beginning.it also brings self defence and the martial arts styles together ...its like finding the missing link or i suppose a forgotten link. you know after all the critics i love to see that a system that so many in the martial arts field put down (and that i have defended on so many occasions) has now become an integral part of martial skill training the world wide. thanx for the verbal sparring match gentlemen...and the warm and fuzzy welcoming.. yes guys i am a friend of tonys. and if you need to know more about me then you can ask him i certainly dont feel the need to explain who i am or my fight experience for this is tonys forum not mine. you know i was really only asking your view points(as a martial scientist) on how the spear tactic has helped you evolve and in which direction. thanx again trev youre a goodman hopefully we can catch up i do alot of business in NSW these days. peace dml
2/6/06 11:30 PM
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ahlong
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Edited: 06-Feb-06
Member Since: 11/24/2004
Posts: 32
would be an honour to catch up with you Deane. Trevor
2/20/06 8:45 PM
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P
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Edited: 20-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 297
Deanne, Glad to see you on the forum. Intelligence and bluntness are always welcome here :-) Tony travels a ton as you know and doesn't get on here very much; sorry if the guys mistook you for a troll, they seem to hang out around here. When you brought up SPEAR vs. 'Cover' to me it really isn't. The cover in 'Blauerspeak' would be a 'Primal SPEAR'. I (depending on the scenario: A-SAP) generally start with primal since it fits perfectly with the premise of the whole system: 1. What does the body want to do? 2. Does it have a combative application? 3. If it does, how do we use it? Alot of people who may have just seen the Blackbelt articles mistake the SPEAR 'Tactic' (Arms outside 90, etc.) for the 'System' which is what I base everything (Boxing, grappling, MMA, etc.) on. As Tony would say that's mistaking a picture of a waterfall for the waterfall. The system is a filter for what is appropriate under pressure. Take ANY tactic and apply the filter and you know what works and why and what wont and why. Great for gameplans and post fight analysis. It's cool that you bring this up because I was often asked why I didn't use the 'SPEAR' in my MMA fights. The fact is I did. But it was the system, not the specific tactic that showed up on video. Thanks Deanne. Sorry I didn't see this earlier, but my 2yr old tackled my computer a couple of weeks ago and I just got back online.... Hmm Spear software maybe ;-) P.
2/22/06 10:05 PM
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tredecjai
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Edited: 22-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/30/2006
Posts: 14
no worries phil deane

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