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Roy Harris >> Countering the elbow escape


2/14/06 7:45 AM
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Grappler2010
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Edited: 14-Feb-06
Member Since: 12/10/2003
Posts: 89
 
Roy, Re: Counter to the elbow escape from mount. Your solution: Pin opponents wrists, start choking. Can you elaborate on this? Please give details how you pin the wrist while choking (use legs, hands, how?). Also what do if the opponent is almost fully out of the mount using the elbow escape--what do you do then? Switch to another position? Which one?? thanks
2/14/06 5:52 PM
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tudor
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Edited: 14-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/10/2005
Posts: 259
I'm pretty good at this escape (I can't do upa because of my back problems) and one Gracie Barra brown belt mundial champion that I sparred with immediately switched to knee on belly... But I'm sure Roy will have more escapes and details on this...
2/16/06 2:45 PM
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Roy Harris
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Edited: 16-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1403
Grappler2010, Because of the way BJJ has been presented in the past, some students THINK that when the go to the mount position that this is all they have to do. In other words, they will control the fight and be able to finish. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Here's the real truth: Your mount control skill level as compared to the opponent's mount escapes skill level will truly determine who will have the advantage from this poition. Just because one person is on top does not necessarily give that person the advantage. To move beyond the basic mount position, the student must learn how to vary their mount position. To date, I have played with around twelve variations. These variations address the special concerns. For example, when I mount, I don't JUST MOUNT. I pay particular attention to how and where my opponent places his elbows. I pay particular attention to how and where my opponent places his wrists. I also pay particular attention to where my opponent places his head, his thighs and his shins. These are just a few examples to show you how my mount position can vary from person to person. By understanding how people position their bodies, I can predict whether an opponent will use upa or elbow/knee escape to begin his escape and then can move myself into a position that will nullify this escape, thereby giving me a temporary advantage. So, you asked if I can elaborate on pinning the opponent's wrist. While I could certainly give you the answer right away, I specifically wrote pin the wrist because I wanted students to THINK for themselves, without me having to give them every ounce of information. For years, students have been pinning their opponent's wrists. However, because of a lack of awareness in training, they never really knew they were pinning their opponent's wrists. (And, you've heard me talk about the importance of developing awareness. Well, here was a chance to develop awareness.) So, what is this method of pinning the wrist that students have been doing for year? Something they have taken for granted and have not developed to a high level? Here it is: The second movement of the paintbrush technique involved pinning the wrist to the ground. There it was - contained within the mechanics of a simple technique! This is how you pin the opponent's wrist. Well "of course" you might say! Well "of course" I say right back at you. You knew this information. However, it took someone to tell it to you again for you to REALLY get it. So, how does it feel to be told something you already knew? Trust me, I have done this with people for years. I have told similar things to purple and brown belts. They too have taken things for granted. So, what's the moral to this story: Don't follow like everyone else! Dig deep on your basics! Contained within all of the basics techniques and fundamental movements are all of the counters and escapes to every technique you know! They are all there waiting to be discovered! Now, what is another method of pinning the wrists? Well, you have been doing this for years as well: Start attacking the neck during the process of mounting. In other words, as soon as your knee hits the ground on the other side of the opponent's body and you have straddled his body, there should be a TON of pressure on the opponent's neck. And trust me, as soon as you begin applying hard pressure on his neck, his wrists will pin themselves to your wrists within seconds. Finally, you asked what to do if the opponent is almost fully out of the mount using the elbow escape. The answer is: It depends. Sometimes I will go to knee on stomach. Sometimes I will go to half guard. Sometimes I will go back to the mount. Sometimes, I will take a knee bar. Sometimes I will take a heel hook. Sometimes I will take a straight foot lock. Sometimes I will take a figure four toe hold. Sometimes I will take the triangle. Sometimes I will take the straight arm lock. Sometimes I will take the kimura. Sometimes I will take the paintbrush. And sometimes I will let him place me into his guard - an over 40 trick ; ) Which will will I go to? it will depend entirely upon the pressure I feel. In order to fully address this topic, you will need to play with this for a minimum of 10 hours. By play, I mean you will have to stay in this position and experiment with a training partner. Only by playing will you learn where you need to go. NOTE: This is in stark contrast to sparring from this position. You are obviously NOT ready to spar with this information yet, which is why I used the word PLAY. Does this make sense? Good training to you, Roy Harris
2/16/06 5:34 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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Edited: 16-Feb-06
Member Since: 12/26/2002
Posts: 4612
Modern Self-Defense Center
"Well "of course" you might say! Well "of course" I say right back at you. You knew this information. However, it took someone to tell it to you again for you to REALLY get it. So, how does it feel to be told something you already knew? Trust me, I have done this with people for years. I have told similar things to purple and brown belts. They too have taken things for granted." I had to laugh out loud at this. Mr. Harris tells me things I already know ALL THE TIME, and it goes down exactly as he wrote above. ~Twinkletoes, who takes it for granted ;-)
2/16/06 5:41 PM
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Roy Harris
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Edited: 16-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1404
Hey Chris, How ya doing? How's Hope? Please say hello to her for me. From a teaching perspective, I always enjoy it when I answer a student's question and then watch their face make that, "Arrgghh, I knew that already" look! If I had five dollars for every time I've seen it happen, well, I'd be living in a 7000 square foot house right about now : ) Latah, Roy
2/17/06 4:17 AM
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cdog1955
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Edited: 17-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 255
Looking forward to pick your brain tomorrow Roy! This is great info, since I am an over 50 player (well, i try to play!)my needs are VERY fundamental, and when I train with someone thats better than me (which is usually everyone), it seems they do the most basic things and it ties me up. At times it's like i got this tool box full of tools, but I have trouble deciding which ones to use and at what time. Thats where Roy's term "PLAY" hits a cord with me. In all reality, I approach training as play, i just need to learn how to play with my toys!
2/17/06 8:44 AM
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twinkletoesCT
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Edited: 17-Feb-06
Member Since: 12/26/2002
Posts: 4614
Modern Self-Defense Center
Hi Roy, Life is good! We're doing very well. Hope is disappointed that we will not be in SoCal when the "Curious George" movie hits theaters--she says if we were in San Diego, she'd buy your ticket & popcorn. :) 7000 square foot house....hmmm. Want to move into my school? It's roomy, and we'd keep you busy! It would mostly be questions that we "already know the answer to" :) ~Chris PS - We're looking forward to coming out West in May for the next Associate Grappling course!
2/20/06 3:30 PM
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cdog1955
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Edited: 20-Feb-06 04:45 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 259
Countering the elbow knee escape, Roy certainly did this to me! He let me escape my right side, my right side was totally free, however when i tried to free the left side I was totally shut down, i couldnt move that side, so it FELT like i could bridge in to Roy to make some space to move the leg, or to bridge him over, as soon as I put my right leg down to bridge, he remounted, so i elbow knee escaped the right again, same thing, I started laughing, so did my partners that was there watching me. On the way home i said what was Roy doing to me, they all told me he was just going to half gaurd, then just retook mount when i tried to bridge. It felt like my left side was buried in concrete.
2/20/06 9:17 PM
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Roy Harris
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Edited: 20-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1406
cdog1955, I like burying the left side in concrete! Maybe I should call that counter: "Boa buries body in concrete" ; ) Roy P.S. Did you guys like your training?
2/21/06 4:45 AM
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jonpall
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Edited: 21-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 8281
For the fun of it, here's a nice way to escape the foot drag version of the elbow-knee escape from the mount, when your opponent has managed to hook your ankle and is about to get his leg under your knee to get half guard: Just get an underhook on the same side where he's escaping. Then lift your knee up and put in on the mat on the other side of your opponent. Sprawl your hip into his hip to free your ankle and you have side control with the far underhook. It's also helpful to know this move for half guard passes, by the way. Cheers, jonpall.
2/21/06 5:49 AM
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cdog1955
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Edited: 21-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 260
Hello Roy, Yes, we did all like the lesson, we discussed it all the way home. As I told you there, I wasn't really looking for any techniques per say, my main goal is to try to help me learn to 'THINK'jui-jitsu, because my body can't train as much as I want (my time available is an issue too). When I see a tech, I want to be able to understand the physics that makes it work, I want to be able to get an understanding of the leverages, and angles, the contact points that make it work. As you saw we are all older guys, we don't have an instructor, we just get together and try to figure all this stuff out, and to have fun, and hopefully get better. I seem to get a better understanding of things when i can relate it to formulas or goals like when you explained escaping X mount, either the opponent will either go to gaurd, or knees. I knew this but when you said it,and then listening to the discussion i started to see how an advanced player begins to think, and play his game on the options his opponent has to that you allow him to have. On my level right now it's basically he does this, i react and do that......and thats one reason I'm usually behind the 8 ball. The only problem that the lesson caused was for every question you answered, now I have what seems to be 100's more! Thanks again! Steve

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