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Weapons UnderGround >> Fighting Pistol DVD


2/28/06 2:27 AM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 28-Feb-06
Member Since: 11/25/2000
Posts: 1885
You don't need to run the slide to clear a stove pipe. Stove pipes can be cleared using nothing more than the blade of your hand. There's more than one way to effectively skin a cat
2/28/06 4:36 PM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 28-Feb-06 04:55 PM
Member Since: 08/28/2001
Posts: 5659
Mike Hughs, Steve Slawson, Steve Hendricks - all current or former Gunsite Head Instructors and rangemasters teach it as Sreiter is describing. There is so much mis-information on this thread I dont even know where to begin.
2/28/06 4:49 PM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 28-Feb-06
Member Since: 08/28/2001
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You should always have an approx count of rounds down range, with any type of firearm. Is it hard in stress situations? Yes, that why we train to do it. The vast majority of gun fights are over in 3-5 seconds. Its not like you need to count that much. Some people teach you to just count 1-2-3 per acclerated pair. 6 rounds down range, you are on 3, time for a tactical reload and a threat assesment. There are lots of ways to deal with stopages, some try to emphasize the least amount of steps to get rounds back down range, and others the most thorough. In a perfect world we would one standard training methodology. But the key points remain.
2/28/06 4:53 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 28-Feb-06
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just in case you are wonder about JACK and his credentials check this thread http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=761021&FID=2
2/28/06 5:04 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 28-Feb-06
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jack - what did you think of the video ?
2/28/06 5:06 PM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 28-Feb-06
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It will not play for me, just timed out. I will take a look at it later.
2/28/06 6:48 PM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 28-Feb-06 06:49 PM
Member Since: 11/25/2000
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I've logged a few hours on the range and I've yet to hear anone advocate the counting of rounds during an actual gunfight. Counting rounds must be a Gunsite thing.
2/28/06 9:23 PM
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riddlin
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Edited: 28-Feb-06
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It must be a Gunsite pistol thing.
2/28/06 10:54 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Edited: 28-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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The CSPT
It's funny... When you put out a product it always comes under fire from some and is the holy grail to others. Always. Demi
2/28/06 11:28 PM
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Aaron Little
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Edited: 28-Feb-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1726
Funny and true but through the good and the bad it keeps flying off the shelf.
3/1/06 11:08 AM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
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Again, here we have people saying things like "I have a few hours of training" "no where I have trained suggests counting rounds" and other vague bullshit. Well I listed in detail where I have had my training, and thats SOP at any number of places. Please be specific if you know a reputable training source who is telling you not to keep track of rounds fired. Please let me know who this is. Its just common sense, you ALWAYS want to know where you stand on a reload. Unexpected tactical reloads are bad, rifle, pistol or shotgun. We are not talking about some Zen top of the mountain skill for gods sake. Just count, you know, like 3rd grade. So again, rather than be a psuedo expert, please tell me exactly where you got all this expertise. I dont care who has put out videos, who is a mod on here, etc. There are lots people in all kinds of hobbies trying to sell shit. Selling something does not make you an expert. What if Srieter suddenly put out a BJJ video, saying you should never pass the guard? Dont you think people would question his knowledge? His training? Why he is making a video? Its not a personal attack. He might well be able to articulate some good reason. But if he just says "I have lots of training and we dont do that" - thats not going to raise some flags about why he is making a video? I know there are TONS of different training methods for firearms. I have trained with people telling me totally different things. I am OK with that. We dont have to agree we each other all the time to make this a constructive forum. But at least do us the justice of making it constructive.
3/1/06 12:41 PM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
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In additon to my time with the military and now in law enforcement I've trained with (in no particular order): Jeff Gonzales, Scott Reitz, Paul Howe, Ken Hackathorn, certified instructors under Phil Singleton, did some training at Blackwater, and yes... with James Yeager and quite a few of the instructors with Tactical Response. Out of all the people I've trained with, I've yet to hear one say to count your rounds. In fact most say that don't worry about it because you'll be too busy trying to shoot the guy shooting at you while looking for cover while praying that you don't get hit while cussing that you just dropped your Chinese take-out.
3/1/06 12:45 PM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
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Also let me add... "Unexpected tactical reloads are bad, rifle, pistol or shotgun" - I've yet to see a tactical reload that was unexpected. After all the tac load is purposely done during a monetary lull in the fight. An emergency reload is when you run the gun dry. Atleast that's how it is in my "psuedo expert" world.
3/1/06 1:39 PM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 01-Mar-06 01:45 PM
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again, you lost me. You have never seen someone have to preform an unexpected reload? You have never done a drill, where you shoot with an unknown amount of ammo in your magazine, to see how you perform a reload when its not expected? The whole purpose of the drill is too learn to perform a tactical reload went you dont expect it. I have never heard this "emergency reload" term. A tactical reload is where you reload your firearm, while maintaining a tactical position / stance. Hopefully while moving, communicating, seeking cover, etc. On a hot range, all of our reloads are tactical. After every drill, during every break, etc. A normal reload, is where I walk back and chat with the range master while I reload all my mags. If i suddenly went empty, stopped, looked around, asked the range master if I could step off the line, footed it to my range bag and started loading magazines - thats not exactly tactical is it? If someone is shooting at me, its really not tactical. Thats why we count, so we never have an "emergency reload". Anytime I having an emergency, thats bad, especially in a fire fight. I'd rather count than have any kind of "emergency."
3/1/06 1:49 PM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
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this is standard CQB fair, done thousands of times. We proceed from there to transitions. If we cannot safely or effectively reload, we transition to our side arm. for the safety of you, and your whole team, we'd much rather have you using a rifle or a shotgun, than falling back to your handgun. Hence the importance of knowing exactly when you need that reload.
3/1/06 3:20 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 10125
Jack - i think the term he is looking for is "MAG CHANGE" - not re-load
3/1/06 8:27 PM
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duckstupid
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/18/2003
Posts: 251
We can all agree to disagree but the real issue here has anyone watched the DVD yet??? I mean an honest review of it would be the best thing to all I believe in this case.
3/1/06 11:22 PM
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Aaron Little
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1727
Good point Duckstupid.


Click here to read reviews of the Fighting Pistol DVD
3/1/06 11:32 PM
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Aaron Little
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Edited: 01-Mar-06 11:33 PM
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There is also a good review HERE, but you have to join to read it. It is our (Tactical Response's) forum and worth joining if you are into this kind of thing.
3/1/06 11:38 PM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
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"You have never seen someone have to preform an unexpected reload?" - Of course I've seen guys have to do "unexpected" reloads before. When did I say that I had't? "You have never done a drill, where you shoot with an unknown amount of ammo in your magazine, to see how you perform a reload when its not expected? The whole purpose of the drill is too learn to perform a tactical reload went you dont expect it." - As I pointed out in my first post about this, the tactical reload is done when there is a lull in the fight and you make the concious decision to top the gun off after firing rounds at someone/thing. If you run the gun dry, you conduct an emergency/speed reload. "A normal reload, is where I walk back and chat with the range master while I reload all my mags." - I'd call that topping off mags or reloading mags....not a "normal reload". "If i suddenly went empty, stopped, looked around, asked the range master if I could step off the line, footed it to my range bag and started loading magazines - thats not exactly tactical is it? If someone is shooting at me, its really not tactical. " - And that isn't even close to what I'm talking about. "Thats why we count, so we never have an "emergency reload". Anytime I having an emergency, thats bad, especially in a fire fight. I'd rather count than have any kind of "emergency." " - Again, the round counting thing must be fairly exclusive to Gunsite and Gunsite Alumni. "this is standard CQB fair, done thousands of times. We proceed from there to transitions. If we cannot safely or effectively reload, we transition to our side arm. for the safety of you, and your whole team, we'd much rather have you using a rifle or a shotgun, than falling back to your handgun. Hence the importance of knowing exactly when you need that reload. " - I'm trained in high risk warrant service and have done one or two so I know about transitions and the advantages of running a long gun over a pistol. And again, in all the training and actual services I've done; I've never heard anyone advocating counting your rounds.
3/1/06 11:42 PM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 01-Mar-06
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"i think the term he is looking for is "MAG CHANGE" - not re-load" - uh, nope. I'm talking about reloads.
3/2/06 12:03 AM
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Aaron Little
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Edited: 02-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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A Tactical Reload is done when there is a lull in the action and one is presented with the opportunity to bring their weapon back up to full capacity. The partial mag is retained in case those rounds are needed later.

It is commonly accepted that the current interpretation of a Tactical Reload (Tac Reload) was developed by Chuck Taylor when he was the head of operations at Gunsite. Lots and lots of references to this on a google search of Tactical Reload and Gunsite.
3/2/06 1:29 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 02-Mar-06 01:32 PM
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tkd - LOL - your loast responce to Jack isnt at all what you were talking about in your orginal post - this came about because you said "oh, when i run dry because i didnt count (or bother to think about conserving ammo and checking to see if the threat stopped, instead you just keep shooting on guy until you ran out of bullets) i just do a tac reload" which is fucking wrong anyway, because if you run dry, you should do a speed reload, look, assess
3/2/06 4:12 PM
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riddlin
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Edited: 02-Mar-06 06:20 PM
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Posts: 550
"the word i have is if you went to gunsite anytime after cooper sold it, there is a good chance you trained with un-qual. people" I will preface this that I have never attended a handgun course at Gunsite. However, according to a friend of mine from work who has been to 150, 250, 350, 499 and ATP, Steve Slawson was his rangemaster in 2002 for 499 pistol. Hmmm My friend also told me that Slawson knew his shit. When I asked him about counting rounds the answer I got was..."I never heard of no shit like that at Gunsite." You two seem to be the only people I have ever heard of advocate counting rounds. "i'm telling you what one of the acknowledge best gun fighter/instructor's in the world told me. but being the OG, I guess you know better" TKDfighter and I are telling you what some of the best gunfighters in the world told us. Are you saying Howe, Reitz, Rogers, Awerbuck, McCann, Gonzales, Goodale, Hackathorn, and Jeans are wrong? Scott Reitz has literly been on LAPD SWAT longer than alot of cops have been alive. Rogers was NYPD ESU and Marine Corps Spec. Ops and retired form both. Awerbuck fought bush wars in Africa and was one of Coopers first choices for the original Gunsite. McCann and Goodale helped develop the doctrine for the USMC High Risk Personel course. McCann is also the current dir. of training for Kroll. All are wrong evidently.
3/2/06 6:15 PM
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riddlin
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Edited: 02-Mar-06 06:16 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 551
The reloads (my way).... Emergency, Slide lock, Reload w/o retention whatever you want to call it. Firing from mod-iso when the weapon is at slide lock I use my weak had to slightly shift the weapon in my strong hand to allow positive acess to the magazine release. This is a fluid movement done by relaxing my strong hand grip and draging , for lack of a better term, my support hand on the triggerguard as I move it to retrieve the spare mag. I am doing this as I bring my strong arm back locking my elbow against my side, strong hand approx. at chin level. This creates what I call my workspace. Eye, muzzle and (if possible) threat are all in line. The muzzle out at a slight angle via my arm, my wrist is locked straight. Insert magazine, rack the slide and scan. Tactical, Reload W/Retention, etc Same as above except that I do not hit the mag release until I am in my "work space". I remove the magazine from the weapon and place it in my dump pouch back when I was Tactical Ted, now I always place it in my front left pocket. Some people will put it in a cargo pocket but if I am in my dress uniform and not my field uniform I will not have cargo pockets so I train this way to keep a set movement. I then retreive a fresh mag insert it, run the slide and scan.

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