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Weapons UnderGround >> Fighting Pistol DVD


3/2/06 6:15 PM
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riddlin
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Edited: 06-Apr-06 04:31 PM
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3/2/06 7:13 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 02-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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"Steve Slawson was his rangemaster in 2002 for 499 pistol. Hmmm" Um, i said GOOD CHANCE "My friend also told me that Slawson knew his shit. When I asked him about counting rounds the answer I got was..."I never heard of no shit like that at Gunsite." well, thats what slawson to me, and obviously his own son too. "Scott Reitz has literly been on LAPD SWAT longer than alot of cops have been alive" I met Scott - he told me he was on METRO not SWAT - however his bio says "As a 26-year veteran of the L.A.P.D., Scott has spent 22 years in the elite Metropolitan Division, with 10 years as an operator and instructor in S.W.A.T. " I'm pretty sure most cops have been alive more then 10 years - I'd take Slawsons over all of them combined any day - he has more experience, more training, and accomplished more then any of them - he's done what most of the others did combined
3/2/06 7:17 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 02-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 10133
i have a few slight problems with the way you change mags(or more to the point, how it differs from the way i was taught), but i wont go into that unless you really want me to - the thing i find interesting is strong hand approx. at chin level. This creates what I call my workspace. Eye, muzzle and (if possible) threat are all in line. at least this part is in line with what i was taught, and not what is shown on the video in the 2 places i point out.
3/2/06 7:19 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 02-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Jack urton has on MANY occasions offered up a day at the range with his dad - a friendly compition - each person picks 2 events - no one has ever taken him up on it why havent you guys ever stepped up? his dad would probally even tell you why what your doing is wrong and correct you - he has done for people fletc fucked up - etc.
3/2/06 8:08 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 02-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 10136
aaron - tickle - tkd - riddlin how many hours have each of you spent with the all the instructor (seems like you all spend time with the same bunch)
3/2/06 10:26 PM
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riddlin
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Edited: 02-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 553
Yes Reitz is METRO I knew that but typed SWAT anyway. None the less you are right and I was wrong. I dont know who all Aaron and TKD have trained with. However, if you read the post you will see that the only common ground TKD and I have is Reitz, Howe and Gonzales. The whole problem I have with you and Burton is the attitude that your way is right and everyone else is wrong because they are not Steve Slawson. To quote Kelly McCann... "We are all victims of our own experience."
3/2/06 11:33 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 02-Mar-06 11:52 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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"The whole problem I have with you and Burton is the attitude that your way is right and everyone else is wrong because they are not Steve Slawson." When I shot with Steve Hendricks he had a few differing points then steve that made very good sense - However when discussing the differences with Slawson, he made sense too - As did Mike Hughes However on most of the fundimentals - they all agreed you can look up their bio's if you like http://www.gunsite.com/instructors.htm thing is, col. cooper trusted slawson and hired him on full time as Director of new bussiness development and Slawsons resume is just too impressive - it goes on forever - from being the head of operations for the middle east for titan security, to simunitions instructor, to sponcered shooter, to big game safari, working for shitloads, upon shitloads of fed, state, and local as trainer, to carring out black ops wit delta - to dea undercover, to exec protection (bill gates), on, and on, and on, and on - AND BTW - I also shot with a few fist fire instructors - as well -
3/2/06 11:49 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 02-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 10138
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=318 check the thread - all three guys i shot with are mentioned here or here http://users.binary.net/thomcat/Cooper/Vol3.html (steve henricks)
3/3/06 5:04 AM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
Member Since: 11/25/2000
Posts: 1891
Now that I have the time........ "your loast responce to Jack isnt at all what you were talking about in your orginal post - " - Let's take a look at what my original reloading post said. I believe it was "I've yet to see a tactical reload that was unexpected. After all the tac load is purposely done during a monetary lull in the fight. An emergency reload is when you run the gun dry." OK, we have that established, now let's look at the second one. "As I pointed out in my first post about this, the tactical reload is done when there is a lull in the fight and you make the concious decision to top the gun off after firing rounds at someone/thing. If you run the gun dry, you conduct an emergency/speed reload." - Damn... that looks just like what I said in the first quote. Don't really see how that is any different now from when I first posted it. "this came about because you said "oh, when i run dry because i didnt count (or bother to think about conserving ammo and checking to see if the threat stopped, instead you just keep shooting on guy until you ran out of bullets) i just do a tac reload" " - Incorrect. I stated tactical reload is conciously performed during a lull in a fight in order to bring your gun back up to full capacity and an emergency reload is done when you run your gun dry. Infact, what you quoted wasn't said by me at all; it some drivel that you came up with. "which is fucking wrong anyway, because if you run dry, you should do a speed reload, look, assess " - Maybe that's your Slawson-inspired method. Personally, if my gun runs dry I do an emergency reload, continue to fight until my threat is down, assess the situation, conduct a 361 degree scan, then conduct a tactical reload. That's how I do it.
3/3/06 5:30 AM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
Member Since: 11/25/2000
Posts: 1892
r - If he sold it over at LF, then I'm the same guy.
3/3/06 10:36 AM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
Member Since: 08/28/2001
Posts: 5675
I think we are partially having a symantecs issue here. Any kind of reload is done only when your gun requires re-loading. Changing a magazine, is not a re-load, your gun is currently loaded. Whare are you loading? Thats a magazine exchange, it can be tactical or not. Changing your magazine during a lull in the fight, is not a tactical reload, its a tactical magazine exchange. Thats a completely different thing. **** Again I dont want to be dick, its not the point of these post. I explained this whole post to my dad (Steve Slawson) and Steve Hendricks while were shooting sporting clays yesterday. They both answered the same way - "This is usually the thing that happens when people are parroting what they were told or taught, without really understanding why. Or not having had enough training / experience to determine why." They also said they dont usually start having people count rounds until the are profecient with the basics. So its "kind of" a adavanced technique. I also add, Gunsite people are not the only people I have trained with. Counting rounds, and other reloading issues are extremely well covered in most CQB schools. Things like calling out "reloading" so a team mate can hear you and pick up your zone, making sure multiples people are not reloading at one time, etc. This is semi-basic grunt SOP in the USMC as well, any squad leader can tell you that.
3/3/06 10:55 AM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
Member Since: 08/28/2001
Posts: 5676
I'll also add hey, I am OK with this kind of discourse. We dont have to agree on everything, I disagree with a TON of shit these GS Range Masters say. Its cool, this is reasonable discourse. Sometimes these issues seem to arrive from LEO / Military style training issues as well. LEO's have escalation of force and legal issues that shape the training methodology. Military have what I call "everyone dies now" training. I still cant get the video's to load, they just time out on me, so I cant comment on them directly. What bothers me about the whole process is how many people are out there with only cursory training, and no experience who are making video's, teaching, on the internet, etc. Thats why I ask for what training you have had. I'll also add I am less concerned with what camp, as I am with how many camps, and how many hours. I'll also add, LEO training is fucking abysmal. Just plain bad. I cant count how many time I have seen a cop go to a 250, and come back and be the instructor at his dept. I (unfairly) tend do disregard all LEO training. LEO's are some the worst shooters I have seen.
3/3/06 12:30 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 10140
Incorrect. I stated tactical reload is conciously performed during a lull in a fight in order to bring your gun back up to full capacity and an emergency reload is done when you run your gun dry- sorry - go back and re-read your post - you said you'd do a tac reload if you ran dry during a live engagement
3/3/06 12:46 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
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Posts: 10143
jack - amn thats a long ass drive for hendricks - it was like 6 hours or some shit denver to grand junction
3/3/06 1:29 PM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
Member Since: 11/25/2000
Posts: 1893
"Any kind of reload is done only when your gun requires re-loading. Changing a magazine, is not a re-load, your gun is currently loaded. Whare are you loading? Thats a magazine exchange, it can be tactical or not. Changing your magazine during a lull in the fight, is not a tactical reload, its a tactical magazine exchange. Thats a completely different thing." - Guess we are going to have toagree to disagree on this. In all of the training I've had, to also include through Surefire,Blackwater,etc; tacical reloads have been as I, Riddlin, and Aaron have described. No offense to you and those who trained you; but I'll stick with the terms used by all of the people I've trained with. "They also said they dont usually start having people count rounds until the are profecient with the basics. So its "kind of" a adavanced technique." - I've been through an adavnaced handgun course with Hackathorn and an advanced carbine course with Reitz and I've still ye to hear counting rounds advocated. It must not be something covered in the circles I run in. "Things like calling out "reloading" so a team mate can hear you and pick up your zone, making sure multiples people are not reloading at one time, etc. This is semi-basic grunt SOP in the USMC as well, any squad leader can tell you that. " - This is something I've been doing since day 1 of my exposure to the world of "tactical" shooting. Its the communication portion of "Shoot, move, communicate". The people I work with try to stay awy from the use of code words to detail what you are doing and instead use plain english to convey our action (cover/covering, relaoding/reload, standing/stand, etc)
3/3/06 1:30 PM
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TKDFighter
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
Member Since: 11/25/2000
Posts: 1894
"sorry - go back and re-read your post - you said you'd do a tac reload if you ran dry during a live engagement" - I think I've already posted exactly what I said. If you are claiming otherwise, go back and pull the actual quote where I state that a tac relaod is done when you run dry.
3/3/06 3:10 PM
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JockDoc
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Edited: 03-Mar-06
Member Since: 04/10/2002
Posts: 697
"What bothers me about the whole process is how many people are out there with only cursory training, and no experience who are making video's, teaching, on the internet, etc." I assume you aren't talking about the original subject of this post and the creator of the DVD in question. James Yeager's credentials are easy to find. The overly-sensitive types may find his personality a bit strong but all who have trained with him will vouch for his instruction and shooting abilities. I don't have enough formal training experience (or real life gunfighting experience) to speak as an authority here but what I have seen taught in a formal setting is similiar to what TKD and Riddlin are describing. And I think some of this is a matter of semantics, ie "magazine change" vs tactical reload. It is an interesting discussion though because I think some of us are interested in learning about what others are doing and teaching.
4/4/06 4:32 PM
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JockDoc
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Edited: 04-Apr-06
Member Since: 04/10/2002
Posts: 699
I went through another advanced handgun course this past weekend with a well known trainer and this question of counting rounds came up. This instructor knows the others mentioned in this thread and has trained side-by-side with many of them over the last 3 decades. He said that anyone that thinks you will be able to count rounds in a gun fight has obviously never been in a real gun fight. It is an assanine proposition to be responsible to account for your round count when shooting under stress. In addition to personal experience in gun play, he has investigated hundreds of shootings involving trained LEO (some with more training than others) and it is a given that the officers will underestimate the number of rounds fired. They are not able to count their rounds. I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere if it is believed that these trainers actually thought you would be able to count rounds in a gun fight. I forgot who mentioned what buy he also affirmed the notion that a "tactical reload" is an administrative action of topping off one's gun during a lull in a fight, best performed under cover when nobody is shooting at you and you don't still have people to kill. He also covered the speed and emergency reload. I could be wrong but I think these concepts and distinctions are well understood in this group. He advocated performing the reload in a manner similiar to what sreiter described, with the gun at eye line and facing downrange at the adversary. The gun shouldn't come off line to reload. I think we found agreement there. Summary: counting rounds in a gun fight is nonsense. Carry enough ammo and reload when you are able or need to but try not to run your gun dry and have to perform an emergency reload... but do not rely on your ability to count rounds.
4/5/06 1:59 PM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 05-Apr-06
Member Since: 08/28/2001
Posts: 5766
LOL, again with mis concenptions and partial truths. Is it easy to count rounds during a fire fight? No, no one ever said it was 'easy.' Is it low on the list of things that are going to be happening in your head in a gun fight (as opposed to an ISPC match) that occurs un-expectedly, yes. Should you practice doing it while training? Absolutely. Whats its going to hurt to make your training a tiny bit harder? If I am on the breach team in a CQB stack (where the combat is expected, as opposed to unexpected) when I bust in am I going to be counting rounds as best I can - yes. Especially if I am on a shotgun as opposed to a sub or rifle. Should you be counting during a IPSC match or equivalent? Again yes. Every top IPSC shooter I know does some kind of counting. Whoever you trained with who said these guys dont have any actual experience in combat - you may want to indentify him. A primary advocate of this, is a 26 year USMC Veteran who was in Vietnem for several tours, Beirut, Honduras, grenada, the site manager in Iraq for over a year, etc. I would guess that few people have the same "combat" experience as him. But again, please explain to me what is so hard about counting? You cant count when you train, to gain you that extra .3 second on a reload? Hell even its only for your IPSC score. I can maybe see not advocating this for LEO's due to the nature of the shootouts, very unlikely to be expected, they dont get that much training anyway, and should work on a awful lot of other things first. For gods sake do any of you shooters shoot birds of any kind? Use any pumps? I count rounds when I am shooting upland game or qual or duck. I only have to get to three, its not that hard. Ever had two sets of birds flush? On the second set you get 1 bang and then a CLICK? You stop and go, damn, I thought I had 1 more - lucky bird. I just cant understand how this concept can be so alien. it was something standard for all grunts in the USMC when I was in - becuase it was so important for MOUT (Operation in Urban Terrain.)
4/6/06 1:49 AM
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JockDoc
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Edited: 06-Apr-06
Member Since: 04/10/2002
Posts: 700
Are you really comparing counting rounds in an IPSC match or while hunting birds to counting in gunfight? You can teach to count rounds and you can practice all you want but experience shows that it does NOT happen in reality. It is lunacy to assume you will be able to keep track of rounds when you're fighting for your life. I think you may have misunderstood the message from your trainer. If you're convinced then we'll just have to agree to disagree.
4/6/06 11:08 AM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 06-Apr-06
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Posts: 5772
***Are you really comparing counting rounds in an IPSC match or while hunting birds to counting in a gunfight?** Well yes, they both involve a gun and shooting things. I gave you another analogy with a CQB stack that applies as well. I doubt seriously I mis-understood any of these trainers. One of them I talk to at least once a week and have known for 35 years. Another 2 gave me shit for 3 hours after that bird example happened to me, in front of 3 Gunsite instructors (no I dont count perfectly all the time either.) What kind of defeatest bullshit is this? In CQB school if you blow your count and have bad team com on reloads - you do the the drills over again - and over and over. You actually have to practice, go figure. No one said it would be easy to do, or master, or that you will not occasionally forget or mess up. So I guess what you are saying is, if its hard, and we might not do it, we should not train for it at all? Thats seems like a revolutionary way to train for me. If we dont train to do it, then obviously its not going to happen. I thought the whole purpose of training was to be the best shooter we could be? Maybe you are training for something else? Do you think someone like Rob Letham got to be one of the best shooters in world buy not training anything he might not do in a match? I dont know if he has ever been in a real shootout or not, but would you want to be in one against him?
4/6/06 4:24 PM
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riddlin
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Edited: 06-Apr-06 04:32 PM
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It's amazing that the guys I know that have been to USMC CQB School don't advocate counting rounds or say that they were taught that. Also my brother was a Security Forces Marine and says that they were never taught to count rounds. Pat Goodale and Kelly McCann were instructors and/or bosses at the USMC High Risk Personnel Course and they do not advocate counting rounds. In fact McCann says it is ridiculous to think you can. Pat Rogers worked extensively in Marine SOTG and Force but does not advocate counting rounds. One of your instructor's claims to fame is that he operated with Delta. Paul Howe and Larry Vickers operated in Delta. Howe and maybe Vickers too trained new Delta troopers. Guess what? They don't teach round counting. It just amazes me that so many of the big named instructors and schools are wrong. Just out of curiosity where did you go to CQB School at in the Corps?
4/6/06 6:24 PM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 11-Apr-06 05:15 PM
Member Since: 08/28/2001
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OK let me start with a couple things. the HRP program was not exactly an advanced shooting course. It was designed to teach TOTAL non shooters the absolute bare minimum of fire arms skills to defend themselves in the worst case situation. So lets not talk about that as a training basis, because its not. Its an entry level crash course designed for people who other wise have little or no training. You lost me on the Delta trainers as well. Is Delta advocating that you shoot till run dry all the time? Are the two USMC trainers advocating you shoot till you run dry all the time as well? None of the former Delta people I know advocate this. I just sent an email asking if that was the case currently. The last Delta guys I watched shoot at the SOF shoot in Vegas was in 2000 or so, and they did not shoot until dry. (edit: I forgot I shot with two former Delta Operators last year who were / are local air marshalls - none of them shot till they ran dry) Those Delta shooters (who where awesome) were class C IPSC shooters. Thats a far cry from the shooting skills of Class A shooters, much less someone like Letham or Enos. Before you ask I am NOT a Class A shooter. So lets try a change in language and try some simple logic and see if we find some common ground. We can all agree that our primary goal is this - Load when we want to, not when we have to. correct? I dont think you can argue that premise at all? So we have to have some kind of "situational awareness" that lets us know when its time to move, shoot, reload, etc. How are we going to develop the situational awareness on when we need to reload? Is there some other technique that is being advocated by these people. the only other thing I can think is shoot till you run dry. They say the loudest sound in world is a click when you wanted to hear a bang. We have all been in mid drill expecting a bang and got nothing, to look up and see the slide locked back - and go oh fuck. Some kind of "situational awarness" has to be created to manage all these things. Since some of you seem to think that you cant count / keep track of your rounds / magazines - how are you going to have this situational awarness in this regard? How I am going to know when I need to re-distribute ammo to someone else in my team? What if I am the only one? How I am going to know when I need to change tactics from engaging the enemy, to running like hell? I am supposed to magically divine where I stand on ammo? Could I count to 30, 6 times in 3 round bursts and somehow tell you that I have 6 rounds left mid fire fight - obviously no. can I go, shit that was four mags, I am over 50% through my ammo, I have one mag in gun with unknown amount of ammo and 1 full mag? certainly - its expected of you in any training I have ever done. If any USMC person you train with says they cant or do not do this, I have just got to meet them. Can I engage 2 people with a standard response from my CC package, and then go - I have 3 in the gun, 8 in my other mag, tactical reload - now I have 9 in the gun and a mag with 2 rounds left? Absolutely. At that point I know once that mag drops I have 3 rounds left total to deal with any tactical problem that remains. We should also be able to agree that if I thought I had 8 rounds and I tried to solve a problem I might very well be shocked and totally screwed to realize - it was really just 3. So you may call it something besides "counting" if that brings up visions of 1-2-3-4 shit where am I -7 -8-9. But what else is it? I did not magicaly devine the number - I counted. How else do determine what options you have available?
4/6/06 6:38 PM
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Jack_Burton
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Edited: 06-Apr-06
Member Since: 08/28/2001
Posts: 5780
I might very well just not be illustrating this well, because I have never heard anyone argue that they dont "count" or have "situational awarness" to determine when reloads are needed, how much you have ammo you have remaining, etc.
5/4/06 7:20 PM
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JockDoc
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Edited: 04-May-06
Member Since: 04/10/2002
Posts: 702
Not to beat a dead horse but neither Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch)or Tiger McKee (ShootRite) teach counting rounds. "You won't/can't count the number of rounds fired." - Tiger McKee in The Book of Two Guns

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