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Roy Harris >> Roy Kimono Paradox?


4/12/06 2:14 AM
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Ridgeback
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Edited: 12-Apr-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Roy,

I would be interested in getting your opinion on the perennial question of the kimono paradox.  I coined that term to describe the belief that training with a gi on will actually make you better at no-gi competition than training without the gi all other things being equal.

Do you think the kimono paradox is real?  In other words lets say that a person only had the goal to compete in no-gi tournaments and had no desire to learn any gi techniques or MMA or self-defense.  This person just wants to focus on the sport of Sub. Wrestling a la Abu Dhabi type competition.

Let's say that person had a year to train for his first competition but had a limited amount of training time available.  Let's say he only had three nights a week to train.  Now for the sake of that sport would he actually be better at the end of the year if he trained part of most of the time with a gi on?  I am speaking to all aspects of the sport too including time spent on takedowns. 

Although its hard to prove or disprove the kimono paradox in a scientific sense I would really like to hear your opinion on this.

4/12/06 3:20 AM
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Roy Harris
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Edited: 12-Apr-06
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Ridgeback, Allow me to share my experience with you. Gi training helps to develop gi work. No gi training helps to develop no gi work. Gi training makes students dependent upon the gi for their control and for many of their techniques. Without the use of certain CLOTH GRIPS, many students cannot perform their gi oriented techniques. And, only a small percentage of cloth grip techniques will apply to no gi. No gi training makes student dependent upon hooking and cupping motions with the hands, wrists, elbows, armpits, hip flexors and knees; all of which can be applied with or without the gi. Therefore, ALL no gi grappling methods CAN apply to gi work without modification. The main differences between the two methods are the grips used for control: Gi work has 20+ grips. No gi work only has six. Here's another way to look at it: Gi training focuses a lot on the use of the fingers (because cloth gripping is emphasized). No gi training focuses more on hooking motions of the hands, wrists and elbows. Therefore, from my perspective, if a person wants to excel at no gi grappling (because of personal preference or limitations on time), they need to spend ALL of their time training without the gi (because the gi training will cause them to use grips they will rarely never in no gi competitions. Does this make sense? Roy Harris
4/12/06 4:12 AM
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Ridgeback
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Edited: 12-Apr-06
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Yes it makes perfect sense.  I am not sure if it was clear, but I personally don't believe the kimono paradox is real.  Its just that a lot of instructors argue that it is and also people argue that because many of the top finishers in Abu Dhabi train with the gi it must be the thing which is giving them a superior edge.
4/12/06 4:19 AM
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Ridgeback
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Edited: 12-Apr-06
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On a related note, to what degree do you feel your over 40 dvd applies to no-gi training?  I love the subject matter but I am afraid most of the information might be more applicable to sport bjj.
4/12/06 1:06 PM
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4 Ranges
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Edited: 12-Apr-06
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Awesome post Roy!
4/12/06 2:50 PM
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ohilovethis
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Edited: 12-Apr-06
Member Since: 02/16/2005
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Mr. Harris, Great post. I have heared that people who train with a gi have better escapes because it is harder to escape postions with someone grabing your gi. In your opinion is this true? Thanks
4/24/06 5:24 AM
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Roy Harris
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Edited: 24-Apr-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Ridgeback, The BJJ OVer 40 DVD was designed specifically for the gi. While some aspects of it can be applied to no gi, I would have to modify and change a few movements and details here and there for no gi (a DVD to follow this fall). --- ohilovethis, People who train with the gi HAVE THE POTENTIAL to have better escapes, but it is really a subjective point. The fact that they can escape better does not necessarily mean they have better escapes. It coule mean, their opponent's ability to control them because of their own dependence on the gi may be what makes the person on the bottom harder to control So, I am not so sure that gi training makes a person better at escapes without the gi. Does that make sense? Roy Harris
4/24/06 5:07 PM
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Ridgeback
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Edited: 24-Apr-06
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Thanks Roy.  I will keep an eye out for future no-gi instructionals.
4/26/06 4:37 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 26-Apr-06
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Here is a question or more of a point regarding gi and no-gi. Generally when people think no-gi (I know I am making a generalization) is seems they think barely clothed, like shorts (or speedos) and nothing else. But I don't think this is reality. I recently notice after observing myself and my classmates in no-gi classes and competitions, and no-gi competitions, that when we spar or compete in no-gi we are wearing alot more clothing then we probably realize. When I competed in the Grapplers Quest in November of last year in Vegas I wore a long sleeve shirt and some shorts. Most of competitors I observed wore similar clothing. I saw very few people who barely clothed. Alot of people wore long sleeve under armour rash guards. Even when I spar and train no-gi I am wearing much more clothing then competitive free-style and greco roman wrestlers (I am exposing far less skin then there are). I realized most people who do no-gi are far more clothe than pro boxers and kickboxers as well as amateur wrestlers. So in reality, in terms of pure clothing, there is "that" much of a difference between gi and no gi. I mean, nowadays no-gi seems to be alittle less clothe the with the gi. There really shouldn't be that big of a deal when you think about it.

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