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Weapons UnderGround >> Glock 23 or H&K USP 40 compact????


5/3/06 10:45 AM
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thomash1
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Edited: 03-May-06
Member Since: 02/24/2004
Posts: 2761
 
I am going to purchase one of these two pistols for concealed carry and for a general all purpose pistol. Other than the large price difference, what are someof the pro's and con's of each. Please discuss. THANKS!!!!!!!!!
5/3/06 4:25 PM
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krept
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Edited: 03-May-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 4478
Both are great weapons and will do their job if you do. There are several significant differences between the two platforms that are either positive or negative depending on what you want in a weapon. If you have narrowed aaalllll the other pistols down to just these two, then spent money renting them and you will KNOW you chose the right pistol. First thing, at least on a superficial level, is the manual of arms. Do you want a pistol with a manual safety lever or no safey lever? Some people are simply not comfortable concealing a weapon that does not have a safety lever because they fear something might get lodged in the trigger guard, someone might grab their pistol and shoot them, etc. Others are not comfortable carrying a pistol with a safety lever because they feel under life threatening stress, they might forget to unsafe the weapon. --- guess the question is, why have you narrowed your choices to those two? There is also the P2000, a more Glocklike USP.
5/4/06 12:56 AM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 04-May-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 633
Personally, I prefer the glock myself. They fit my hands better, and I like the consistant trigger pull over the SA/DA triggers out there. I also prefer the "throw it out of a plane" reliability that they have. For a bunch of cool video's about a glock and a H&K goign head to head on a torture test, check out : http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=462537 The short of it, the H&K choked and puked on the first round of the tests while the glock kept on going strong. The H&K NEVER malfunctioned when being fired without being buried in something nasty though.
5/7/06 11:35 AM
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psychoslasher
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Edited: 07-May-06
Member Since: 04/08/2004
Posts: 636
I like my HK but compared to how concealable it is compared to a Glock, the HK is a little bulky. The Glock is a little bit smaller than the HK. But............I wouldn't trade my HK for one :)
5/31/06 1:28 PM
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Steven Lefebvre
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Edited: 31-May-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 312
Hello I have had incredible durability with the Glock 23, but I know of several friends who own the HK with similar results as well. All the best Guro Steve L.
5/31/06 9:45 PM
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SteelTalon
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Edited: 31-May-06
Member Since: 01/18/2003
Posts: 135
Hello thomash1, Have you considerd the SA XD40? MIghty sweet! Peace, ST~
6/19/06 7:27 PM
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robs42
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Edited: 19-Jun-06
Member Since: 07/10/2005
Posts: 26
check out the xd
10/3/07 10:43 PM
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swmnbjjer1
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Edited: 03-Oct-07
Member Since: 09/23/2007
Posts: 53
i hate glocks, have 2 HKs go for the HK
1/7/08 8:44 PM
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kooldownp
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Edited: 07-Jan-08
Member Since: 07/11/2007
Posts: 432
ttt
1/13/08 4:26 AM
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Dark Knight
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Edited: 13-Jan-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 7293
Look at the XD
2/25/08 10:06 AM
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T0ki
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Edited: 25-Feb-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 22145
^^^^ Same with HK. I don't like the fact that the Glock does not have a proper safety. You can spout all that "passive safety" nonsense you want. I'm a 1911 guy who likes frame safeties for a reason. 1. Shit happens. 2. You may have your gun taken away from you (drop it, struggle, etc.). It could mean the difference between the assailant fumbling with your piece long enough for you to clock his ass OR him/her shooting you. There are arguments both ways. Some say you should practice with the safety so you automatically flick it in a combat situation. Some say you should practice where you NEVER put your finger on the trigger with an active safety-less weapon. Obviously, it's a matter of choice, but the chances of an AD are greater than a ND.... Agree? <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_xrlKH8OM5o&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5IZlcbJwfP4&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6aSJgcpqePk&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>
2/29/08 9:46 PM
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HarryLime
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Edited: 29-Feb-08 09:51 PM
Member Since: 03/15/2002
Posts: 3951
Even though peeps hate the heavy DA trigger, I feel the DA/SA is the best solution. Just train to make shots off the DA pull. Gabe Suarez is very anti-safety because he sees so many 'experienced' 1911 guys fail to unsafe their pistols during force-on-force drills. I also agree that a 5.5lb safe-action trigger may too light for stressful life/death encounters. LEO do seem to have a disturbing number of NDs with these guns. The smooth DA on a Sig or CZ is not going to impair accuracy at CQB distances. If you need to take a shot longer than 15-20 meters there should be time to thumb cock your pistol for a SA shot.
3/1/08 5:07 AM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 01-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 752
Follow firearm safety rules and external safeties become another thing to screw up when the excrement hits the rotating device. Treat every gun as if it were loaded until you've checked it Don't point your gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy don't put your finger on the trigger until you are on your target Know your target and what's beyond your target A gun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled even if the safety is off. However, in FoF drills, I've seen 1911 safeties (about the easiest safeties out there to disengage since your firing grip disengages both external safeties) missed causing the "shooter" to either get "shot" or "stabbed" to "death" during the drills. The first guy tripped and fell, it happens, had his finger not been on the trigger and indexed on the frame properly, it wouldn't have pulled the trigger. The cop in the second video is a retard and shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun, and clearly violated firearm safety rules. The female officer in the third video is carrying a Beretta 92 it looks like, which has external safeties, she also clearly violated safety rules. Many people like to use external safeties as excuses for poor gun handling skills. See the above examples. There is no such thing as an AD, there are only ND's. "Accidental discharge's" happen on first dates in back seats, "Negligent Discharge's" happen when idiots can't follow basic firearm safety rules.
3/2/08 9:20 PM
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T0ki
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Edited: 02-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 22242
" Follow firearm safety rules and external safeties become another thing to screw up when the excrement hits the rotating device." Correct. I am not doubting that one bit. Did you ever see the movie Crimson Tide? The argument in that movie is very similar. Agree or no? "There is no such thing as an AD, there are only ND's. "Accidental discharge's" happen on first dates in back seats, "Negligent Discharge's" happen when idiots can't follow basic firearm safety rules." Sure. In the above examples, I'll say that both are ND's. But guess what? They happened. BUT, let's go real world. You get into a situation where you're in a struggle. One of two situations are incredibly possible: 1. Your gun is somehow dislodged from your hand. You ACCIDENTALLY drop it, you're in a struggle, your arm gets injured, etc. To get back to it, all you have to grab it. The only thing presented is the trigger guard. Someone came on here like 3-4 years back and called us a bunch of idiots for our views on weapon retention. I can't remember who it was. Grandpab or Jack Burton? Maybe even Stickgrappler. He told us to do some retention drills with headgear and full contact. I think a lot of us tried it out (self included). I remember two things clearly about it. First, that stuff is exhausting. Second, the gun became "dislodged" a lot and I ended up "fingertipping" to get the pistol back. Three times, the gun "negligently discharged" in the melee. Oh yeah. More than a few times he got the gun from me. If he pulled the trigger on a "passive safety" firearm, it would have gone bang. So it depends on where you want to focus your training. I think that it's easier to train to make disabling a frame safety part automatically. Some think it's better to practice for 100% trigger control. In theory, it sounds better than my approach of relying on another thing to screw up when the shit hits the fan. But if you throw more shit at a meaner fan, you start getting in to issues like weapon retention. ESPECIALLY if you're a LEO. Somebody snatches your pistol and pulls the trigger, or you accidentally manage to apply enough pressure on the trigger to discharge... Some say there are also LEGAL advantages of a safety. A documented policy (and subsequent documented and audited training) that shooters do not disengage it until you are in a "deadly force" situation can mean the difference between a justified shooting and a crippling lawsuit that would wipe your organization out. My questions are: Do I trust my ability to control of the trigger 100% of the time? Do I trust my ability to engage the safety in a fight 100% of the time? Should an attacker get hold of my gun, is there ANYTHING on planet earth that can buy me a second or two should the shit REALLY hit the fan? Again. Matter of personal preference. Just my reasoning.
3/2/08 11:23 PM
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Skpotamus
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Edited: 02-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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>Oh yeah. More than a few times he got the gun from me. If he pulled the trigger on a "passive safety" firearm, it would have gone bang.< >I remember two things clearly about it. First, that stuff is exhausting. Second, the gun became "dislodged" a lot and I ended up "fingertipping" to get the pistol back. Three times, the gun "negligently discharged" in the melee. Oh yeah. More than a few times he got the gun from me. If he pulled the trigger on a "passive safety" firearm, it would have gone bang. < Are you wrestling with someone with your safety on or would you already have it disengaged as part of your grip? When I compete/train with my 1911, my drawstroke disengages my thumb safety. Even when I was doing FoF drills, if I was able to get the gun out of the holster, the safety was off. If I get my hand on my 1911, the safety was under pressure, and often times disengaged. When the gun was taken away from me in FoF it having a safety didn't matter because I had already disengaged it so I could use it. If your gun was being discharged during the struggle, the attacker wouldn't need to disengage anything. You'd already done it. When I teach weapon retention to officers, part of the curriculum is trying to get them to recognize when they have enough control to draw the gun, and when to keep the thing in the holster so the other guy(s) can't draw it as easily.
3/7/08 12:09 PM
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T0ki
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Edited: 07-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 22244
Skopatamus, we were using his Glock 23 and my HK. The times we used the HK, I'm referring to a situation where enough pressure would have been applied to cause a discharge. Due to the grip safety, your 1911 would have been fine. I'm referring to the drawbacks of the Glock. FYI, it was Demetrius Barbito (SP?) who recommended the drills. I had enough control to draw, but he hit me in the fucking face and I dropped the pistol. :-D
3/23/08 9:35 AM
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ReCoSys
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Edited: 23-Mar-08
Member Since: 06/20/2005
Posts: 1832
Interesting thread.

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