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DantheWolfMan UnderGround >> can the flinch be ....


6/14/06 7:45 PM
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spc36
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Edited: 14-Jun-06
Member Since: 02/01/2004
Posts: 92
 
.... untrained and would that be desirable? I personally could see that in a sport fight that its possible, but I kinda of doubt it in a sudden street attack. Thanks, Shane
6/14/06 8:06 PM
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JDDynamic
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Edited: 14-Jun-06 08:14 PM
Member Since: 03/26/2003
Posts: 52
Shane, The flinch is not something that can be eliminated, even when training for a sport fight. The flinch is a natural physiological response to ANY stimulus introduced too quickly for your senses to pick up on and the severity of the flinch is related to the speed, proximity and aggression with which it is introduced -- the acronym we use here is A-SAP. A = Awareness (ours) -- S = Suddenness or Speed (bad guy's) A = Agression (bad guy's) P = Proximity (bad guy's) However, you can train to reduce the external visibility of a flinch. It is what you do with the recognition that you have or are flinching you develop through training that helps influence your reaction to that stimulus (ie: you flinch) and how you convert your reaction to enable or initiate a tactical response. There could definitely be times where you don't flinch. In those circumstances it is more likely that you were hit because you didn't see the attack coming at all. For examples of this, look at any video footage from the UFC, boxing, etc., where one person gets knocked cold and didn't even move to defend themselves. Jason Dury Herndon, VA
6/14/06 9:51 PM
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spc36
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Edited: 14-Jun-06
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Thanks Jason for that very good reply:) That makes good sense to me and I agree. Thanks, Shane
6/15/06 7:35 AM
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Paul R
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Edited: 15-Jun-06
Member Since: 08/23/2004
Posts: 7
Shane, Another thing to keep in my mind (even if we choose to separate the street vs. sport model), is that it is possible to flinch "during" the fight. We most often think of the flinch with regards to the "ambush" or the first attack. It is happened to me many times in training where I use the startle-flinch conversion to get past the initial attack - only to find that I "flinch" in response to a subsequent attack later in the fight(drill). With this idea in my mind, it certainly would not be desirable to untrain the flinch (which as Jason pointed out is not possible anyway). Paul Rossi
6/15/06 5:34 PM
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spc36
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Edited: 15-Jun-06
Member Since: 02/01/2004
Posts: 95
Thanks Paul. The main reason I asked this question is because someone in the indusrty whom I respect a great deal has said that it is possible to unhinge the flinch. Also, they stated that Tony has said that he doesn't flinch anymore. Maybe I am remembering incorrectly? I kinda hate to post this as I don't want to stir anything but I am curious about this. Thanks, Shane
6/15/06 7:38 PM
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ahlong
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Edited: 15-Jun-06 07:38 PM
Member Since: 11/24/2004
Posts: 35
Shane, The flinch is hard-wired into the human body's physiological system. This is why it can't be untrained, or 'unhinged' - it can't be untrained because it's not even trained; it's not a muscle-memory movement. And even if you could 'untrain' it as it were - why would you want to when it's always going to be much faster and reliable than some cognitive process? The flinch is always there; the only way to eliminate the flinch altogether is having some sort of brain surgery that impairs that part of your brain/neurological system. What you can do though is increase your awareness and emotional conditioning to reduce the degree of 'physical' flinch, i.e. external visibility, as Jason pointed out. This may be what your friend is referring to. Regards, Trevor Wilcox
PDR Team
Sydney, AU.
6/15/06 8:03 PM
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JoeSk
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Edited: 15-Jun-06
Member Since: 08/29/2002
Posts: 12
Shane, You stated that you heard possibly incorrectly someone say " Also, they stated that Tony has said that he doesn't flinch anymore. Maybe I am remembering incorrectly? I kinda hate to post this as I don't want to stir anything but I am curious about this." In over 5 years of training with Coach Blauer I have never heard him say he does not flinch anymore. What I have heard him say is that his flinch at times is more tactical looking than primal looking. This is attributed to A-SAP and years of training to convert the flinch into a tactical response. The flinch is still present it just is more minute and converted quicker as we practice the SPEAR System (Jason touched on that in his post). But it still comes down to A-SAP and were you are in your level of Psychological Awareness when you are attacked. Like Jason posted if you did not see the attack coming there was no awareness therefore no flinch. Joe Skovira
6/16/06 12:45 AM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 16-Jun-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 973
Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
"The main reason I asked this question is because someone in the indusrty whom I respect a great deal has said that it is possible to unhinge the flinch. Also, they stated that Tony has said that he doesn't flinch anymore." To take this conversation seriously you'll need to state the name. Yes, 'respect' can be earned (at what cost) but phsiology rules...what does your body tell you? What is observed? TB
6/16/06 12:25 PM
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taroson
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Edited: 16-Jun-06 12:27 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Shane, Now that you have a basic understanding of A-SAP, you can see how someone who lacked the knowledge of that concept could mistake lack of awareness for "unhinging the flinch." Jason did a wonderful job explaining this. As far as Tony saying he doesn?t flinch anymore, well, we can chalk that one up to human error. We know what your friend thought he heard, but rest assured, that is not what Tony said, or it was taken out of context. It is obvious that your friend has made some inaccurate observations and statements. I hope you will continue to study the system. It is based on science, physiology and decades of research and refinement. The system continues to evolve under the guidance of Tony "Mad Scientist" Blauer. Great answers from Joe and Jason. Take Care, Mike Suyematsu
6/16/06 6:44 PM
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spc36
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Edited: 16-Jun-06 07:50 PM
Member Since: 02/01/2004
Posts: 96
Thanks for the replys all. The person I am referring to is Scott Sonnon, and I believe I said that it was someone whom I respected in the industry and not a friend (although that would be great).I believe that I have read or have seen in one of his videos that the flinch is tied to the "moro reflex" (spelling?). The moro reflex was useful to protect the head and neck when we were infants. And, I believe that he said that this could be unhinged thru the proper training. I believe that the value being placed on undoing the flinch is that we could access more of our skills in times of stress. Again, I am fairly certain that Scott mentioned that Tony said that he does't flinch anymore. I thought that if that is true that there must really be a higher level of mental and emotional control beyond what is instinctual.This really does interest me a great deal.I felt that this was the right forum to go to for the answer. I have tremendous respect for both Tony's and Scott's work and am in no way trying to misrepresent anyone. I do not care for martial art politics at all. If I have made a mistake then I apologize sincerely. Thanks, Shane
6/16/06 9:24 PM
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P
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Edited: 16-Jun-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 335
Shane, I sense an honest discussion here so I'm tossing in my 2 cents. Pardon the trepidation in some of the answers but when 'indirect references' are made by someone anonyomous... alarms go off :-) A-SAP formula is definately the key to understanding the how/why/degree of any 'reflexive response'. The flinch is a VERY good thing. It's nature's way of saving your life. It's not a sign of weakness, it's just survival. The study of it's effects and conversion into tactics is at the heart of the SPEAR System. On the elimination of the flinch. This is a case of 'scenario dictates'. The only time I've seen Tony not flinch on purpose and teach it's 'removal' would be the ECT drill. But in the same drill if someone was to 'jump speed' the flinch would certainly be evident in either a primal, protective or tactical form. As for Scott's comment, I've not seen the video so cannot comment. You'd be best to go to his forum and ask for clarification. I'd bet it's simply a misunderstanding. Phil
6/16/06 9:45 PM
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spc36
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Edited: 16-Jun-06
Member Since: 02/01/2004
Posts: 98
Thanks Phil for the reply. Yes, this in an honest inquiry. I didn't want to mention his name initially as to avoid any politics. I am going to go through some tapes and see if I can find where Scott was discussing this issue. It has been awhile since I read or saw this and I had meant to ask about this some time ago. I was recentley reminded of this when I read an article by Eric Cobb on the SPEAR .He mentions in the article that it would have to be removed surgically. After reading this article and remembering Tony's name brought up by Scott I decided to throw this thread out there to find out if I am understanding this right or not. Thanks again, Shane
6/17/06 10:06 AM
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Sonnon
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Edited: 17-Jun-06 10:08 AM
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Thanks for bringing my awareness to this thread. What I coach refers to the specificity of adaptation. My research and experience has repeatedly verified that one can 'unhinge' the adverse severity of reflexes by acclimating to them through specific drill progression. Organizationally, I focus on that through sport and fitness, because my primary institutional emphasis is the cultivation of flow-state for individual character development. Tony's organization can state its mission better than I, but from my experience, Tony emphasizes acclimating to a more combative realm. However, the remark to which you allude refers to the fact that the very drill progression specificity over years and thousands of hours of practicing has caused a rare level of mastery in Tony himself, to which he does not face the adverse severity of 'flinching'. Would I or my athletes or Tony and his flinch in a novel or noxious situation? I would assume that is likely. That's not the point. The point is that in both organizational missions and doctrines, the ability to acclimate specifically to the targetted domains also lends itself to an effective and efficient translation of any reflexive responses in even with exposure to novel or noxious stress. Tony is not only a respected colleague of mine, but he has had a strong influence upon me over the years. I hold him with great respect. Contrarily, Eric Cobb is not a colleague of mine, and I do not hold him in high esteem or with any respect. He does not speak for my organization in any way, shape or form, and is held with disdain due to his unethical misdeeds.
6/17/06 12:37 PM
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spc36
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Edited: 17-Jun-06
Member Since: 02/01/2004
Posts: 99
Thanks Scott for your reply:)! You have answered my questions concerning this. I feel that forums are great, but I usually lack the ability to come across the way I would like through the keyboard. I again apologize to both organizations if I have offended. All I can say is that Tony's and Scott's orginazations are my two favorite in the industry and I plan on spending many more dollars with both. I think they compliment each other nicely. Well, my wife just asked me what I would like for fathers day,hmmm, now let's see ;). Thanks all, Shane
6/17/06 10:46 PM
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Tony Blauer
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Edited: 17-Jun-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Blauer Tactical Systems, Inc.
HI SCOTT , THANKS FOR JUMPING IN HERE. Shane, the key point of analytic dissection is this statement of Scott's: "... to which he does not face the adverse severity of 'flinching'." This is a true statement. Out of context, the term 'unhinged' was foreign and was interpreted as 'negate'. The truth is 'physiology rules' and will override cognitive complex motor skills if it wants to. To train to override this fundamental stimulus/response drills must include 'alive' & other contact evolutions that include fear, risk, penalty, pain etc., because the primary function of the flinch is to 'recoil' from us danger. Theres a lot going on in both Scott's methodology and mine. Whats, most important is that we both organize our training around scientific, behavioral, physiological principles; theres no mysticism, no smoke & mirrors. Speaking specifically for the SPEAR System, what we seek to do is to train the thinking brain, the cognitive warrior, to convert the startle/ flinch at the earliest moment. This acclimatization & stress inoculation process is a scientific measure achieved through our EMOTIONAL CLIMATE DRILLS & BALLISTIC MICRO-FIGHTS. Do you ever NOT flinch? I suppose it possible, but a statement like that is made while training in a lab environment, its experimentation where controls in place. For example, I've researched this principle with dozens of soldiers back from 'real' close quarter combat and they all report 'yes, they flinched'. These same soldiers hardly flinched or didnt flinch during training evolutions (CQB with marking cartridge weapons). So why flinch overseas? Without giving details, and simply put: the conditions weren't 'ideal' like when we trained. (i.e real ambush = real surprise = flinch = convert= counter-ambush). Controlled conditions, consent and preparation will affect the experiment, the findings therefore reflect the conditions and not necessarily the facts. *In some cases the individual doesn't even realize they flinched (even when we show it on video). The message, moral, focus for both Scott's and my position is the same though: through proper training, one should seek to develop realistic pre-contact cues so that you either 'dont flinch' (bad-guy was really predictable/telegraphic) or you flinched (mini/minor/major) and that initial 'impulse' [reactive response] triggers your trained cognitive response (the bridge is the conversion and thats the science of the SPEAR System) and voila, you're back in the fight. Anyhow, what started off as a potentially adverse thread, 'converted itself :-) into a nice little dialog. Thanks for the question and thanks for your comments regarding Scott and my work. *Teaser, look for an upcoming training camp featuring Scott & myself in 2007. Tony
6/18/06 12:20 AM
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spc36
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Edited: 18-Jun-06
Member Since: 02/01/2004
Posts: 100
Thanks Tony for your understanding and your excellent reply:) One thing that you and Scott have in common in my opinion is that you are both trail blazers.You both think out side the box and are ahead of the game, wich is why I feel that some in the martial arts/fitness community misunderstand your positions. I must admit that about six years ago I was a purely knucklehead know it all MMA/Sub-grappler and thought that RBSD guys where off base and that I knew all there was concerning self defense and conditioning. Well, injuries and a change in priorities led me to both yours and Scott's work and I can honestly say that I was the one off base and certainly haven't even scratched the surface on real self defense training and physical,emotional, and mental training. Both of you guys have made a tremendous impact on me through your tapes and articles/books, and not in just training but in life in general.I hope to get to train with each of you in person one day, BTW when and where is the camp? Thanks, Shane
6/18/06 2:44 PM
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Chuckk
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Edited: 18-Jun-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 987
I am glad this thread turned around... Great dialog!
6/19/06 10:56 PM
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Sonnon
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Edited: 19-Jun-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1447
Tony, I'm honored by the opportunity for us to work together. You are the forefront pioneer in fear psychology.

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