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Weapons UnderGround >> Die Less Often: KF & DC


8/7/06 8:52 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 07-Aug-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 325
 
Woof All: Following up on a post of mine in "Knife and Gun Disarms" thread (which you may want to (re)read for context here: Our newest project is a triple disc featuring noted combat firearms instructor Gabe Suarez and me and is titled "Die Less Often: Intro to the Interface of Gun, Knife and Empty Hand". There is a promo clip up on our website www.dogbrothers.com and the masters are at the duplication house and we should receive our first copies and being shipping in about 10 days (at which point the pre-order price will be going up :-) ) What follows is a rough draft of an interview I did for LEO Kevin Davis and is posted here with his gracious permission. The Adventure continues Crafty Dog ================ LEO Interview: 1) Most law enforcement officers are of the opinion that "the suspect brought a knife to a gunfight". Why is this mindset dangerous? It is not a fight. It is an ambush. The initiation goes to the knifer because he is the bad guy. A knife never runs out of ammo. A knife never goes out of battery-- even during a life and death struggle between two men. Like the gun, the point of the knife can kill. Unlike the gun, not only can you not grab the edge, but the edge can kill you as well. When a knife is inserted, the amount of damage that can be done with twisting, slashing and other continuing motions is extraordinary. 2) Most shootings take place within 6 feet and look little like standard firearms training. With your experience in full-contact stick fighting, where do you think we're going wrong? First I would like to make very clear that I don't think in terms of you guys "going wrong", I simply think I have something to offer. Second, I'd like to make clear that I regard my experience with Real Contact Stickfighting as only part of what I bring to the table. In addition to quality training under some of the finest martial ats teachers in the world, I have been teaching prison guards, law enforcement, and elite military soldiers for years now. I am a Level Three Combatives Instructor for the US Army. My point here is that by teaching these men and women I also have learned. I always ask questions and ask for questions. By engaging with these real world questions, I continue to learn. That said, as asked your question is strictly about firearms training. This is NOT an area of expertise for me-- quite the contrary. Yet the logic of firearms is implicit in what I teach and I have set about rectifying this weak link in my chain. This is why the "Die Less Often: Intro to the Interface of Gun, Knife and Empty Hand" is a joint project with noted combat firearms instructor and former LEO Gabe Suarez. Conversely it is precisely Gabe's experience with shootings occurring within 6 feet that brought him to me. Coming from complementary directions, we arrive at the same place-- the interface of gun, knife and empty hand. In other words, my contribution is to the combatives element of the interface, including weapon protection and retention, weapon access, and defense against weapons including disarms and weapon captures. The martial arts which form the core of my training (Kali-Silat and others) are precisely about contact weapons such as stick, knives, clubs, staffs, improvised weapons, etc. They were developed not for young male ritual hierarchical combat but for life and death conflict-- conflict which involves ambush, uneven numbers in 360 degree situations, weapons. The access issues of a gun during ECQ overlap considerably with the access issues of stick/ASP/baton/knife during ECQ-- likewise the retention issues. I think where my experience in the adrenal state using these skills in Real Contact Stickfighting (about 140 fights) and considerable experience in training others to do so as well is relevant. Although I am but a civilian, I have had a moral place wherein to experience the adrenal application of my training to a far greater than if I had to wait for "on the street" experience. I certainly would have to be a person of very poor judgement and/or morality to have this amount of adrenal experience in a "normal" life!!! Anyway, because of these things people seem to appreciate what I can contribute. 3) How can police engage in realistic close quarters or extreme close quarters firearms training that incorporates empty hand? I am sure that you and your readers are familiar with simuntions training, scenario training, and so forth. These are all very good! What I would offer to the mix is what we call the Kali Fence and the Dog Catcher, weapon access once the fight has started and both the restraint methods and the extreme violence methods which I have been taught. The Kali Fence is a particular fence that in my opinion is ideal for conducting interviews with dubious individuals, weapons retention, pre-emption, interception of all the likely attack angles. It is set up to work against larger and stronger individuals as well. There is a body of material for pre-empting and intercepting attacks that is ideal for solving/countering/avoiding common concealed gun and knife draws as well as empty hand attacks while positioning the officer for cuffing or drawing his sidearm or other tools. The Dog Catcher is for when we are reacting to an attack; if we already are in a Kali Fence, then so much the better. In ECQ the reaction time is a split second. As recognized by DT instructors everywhere, there is considerable value in having a "non-diagnostic default response" i.e. something that officers can automatically do when sudden aggressive moves are made towards them without first having to discern exactly the nature of the attack because simply there is not enough time. As I understand it, the idea is to survive the initial ambush strike and get into the fight. My understanding is that these default positions typically are about protecting the head and neck. My concern is that if the attack is with a knife that the lung/heart are exposed to the very common hooking/stabbing motion, the belly exposed to the slash, and the groin/femoral exposed to rising hooking/stabbing motions.
8/7/06 8:53 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 07-Aug-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 326
The Dog Catcher does require diagnosis as to whether the attack comes from the right or left. If the attack comes from the perp's left side a different response is called for. Because the Kali Fence's hand position defines centerline the response on this side readily becomes quite instinctive. The Dog Catcher is for attacks that come from the right--and some 90% of the population is right handed. As we see in our stickfighting, in footage of prison attacks, in footage of riots and street attacks, the natural human tendency in the enraged state is what we call "caveman" strikes--be they empty handed, with clubs or with knives. This can be done crudely or in a cultivated manner--what we call the "prison sewing machine" which is demonstrated in the promo clip for "Die Less Often" by my good friend and longtime federal prison guard Dogzilla. My thinking on this point originated in a conversation I had several years ago with a former member of the Aryan Brotherhood who had killed people in prison. "What technique did you use?" He looked at me like I was an idiot. I felt like an idiot. "You don't use any technique. You steel yourself up; (his body began to steel up as memories were awakened) you pump him until he is dead; and then you bind your wounds." In the Dog Catcher I seek to offer something that can readily be done in the high adrenal state (and here I think my experience as a Dog Brothers stick fighter and as someone who has taken many people from all walks of life to the level where they can perform at this level of pressure helps me a lot) against someone who is steeled up and is coming to pump an officer until he/she is dead. Apart from slight adjustments due to the angle of attack, the Dog Catcher is non-diagnostic in the sense that applies to both common empty hand and common knife attacks on the high, middle and rising hook lines. Also very important is that it is designed to offer the officer the option of taking the perp down for disarming and cuffing OR breaking off at an angle to access the sidearm or other tools. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT. For a civilian, this would be the moment to run away. 4) What has your "field testing" found about close quarters deadly force incidents that surprised you? Given my Dog Brother background-- vigorous testing is something I strongly believe in. Something that surprised me very much was that there were times that the "knifer" wound up on the good guy's back- typically at about 04:30--as he applied the Dog Catcher. I could have blamed poor execution of the technique, but really the only relevant thing is that it was happening. That said, what surprised me even more was that, because of the relative position of hands and limbs, this turned out to be a Plan B position of considerable merit for the good guy. Experimentation and research are indespensible! If this is not answering your question as intended, I apologize--but as a civilian my philosophy is "What you think of me is none of my business." In other words, I do not respond to insults and other such foolishness. As such, so far I have been able to avoid deadly force incidents in my own life--apart from that one time that got me thrown into a Mexican prison for three days, but that was to save a girl from being dragged off to be raped by four guys. But I digress , , , 5) In your opinion what is the state of modern police suspect control or defensive tactics training? I do not regard myself as qualified to have an opinion! My impression, based upon numerous informal conversations it that this is an area in tremendous flux. Some departments seem to be rather fossilized, and others are very cutting edge. I believe I have something to contribute and if the officers agree, then that is my great honor. The Adventure continues, Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny
8/29/06 4:47 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 29-Aug-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 335
Now available. Our website www.dogbrothers.com now has two animated tech sequences on it.
9/1/06 1:12 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 01-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 11802
how much live combat do you show? do you have someone with a magic marker going against someone using your techs and evaluate whether or not they'd die? do you have someone using simunition go against someone tring to disarm someone with a gun?
9/2/06 11:18 AM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 02-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 340
A post to the "Eskrima Digest" ============================= From: "Kevin Davis" Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 18:08:01 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Dogbrothers Die Less Often DVD Just received my new (3) DVD set "Die Less Often: Intro to the interface of gun, knife, and empty hand" from the Dogbrothers. Forum member Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny has teamed with former LEO and firearms instructor Gabe Suarez to produce an innovative program for interfacing empty hand and pistol against a knife wielding assailant. As a full-time LEO and firearms trainer as well as a FMA player, I can heartily endorse the product. Too many officers or for that matter CCW permit holders believe their pistol will solve all problems. What Crafty has reminded us and given concepts and techniques for overcoming, is that the knife can be devastating at close range and the threat must be neutralized prior to or while the handgun is accessed. All handgun carriers should remember that a gunfight is first and foremost a fight. Too often pistol training on a "flat range" looks more like competition instead of the down and dirty close range "gunfight" it frequently is. As Marc would say, a tail wag for a fine product from Crafty and Suarez. I for one am looking forward to more in this regard. Mabuhay ang Inayan Eskrima! KD
9/2/06 6:20 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 02-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 11804
LMAO why not tell everyone how much EVERYONE kisses your ass on ED guess you dont show any live force on your DVD's since you didnt answer my Q's I tihnk it's pretty irresponsible to present a product to the public that claims the material contained therein, once learnt, will allow you to survive a gun attack i'm sure you have all sort of legal mumbo jumbo to protect yourself when someone die's, but thats a late after you have their money
9/7/06 2:40 AM
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Marc_Scott
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Edited: 07-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 2208
Russian Judo
Marc did demo his defense against edged weapon training, and had no issues with me asking to challenge it full force. Which I did. I found it to be a very effective way to deal with the dedicated, committed attacker.
9/7/06 9:18 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 07-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 341
Thank you Marc. Most folks around here for a while know that sreiter has a long history of personal animosity towards me and that I do not engage with it. For those of you who are new around here, just check out the promo clip at www.dogbrothers.com which shows examples of some of the testing this material is put to.
9/8/06 12:38 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 08-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 11833
MD - my first questions were valid and up to know, i havent engaged you at all since you've been on the forum, however, selling "how to defend yourself against a gun" is goig a little far - actually i LMAO @ the title - it suggests that i wont die all the time using your techs, just some of the time MS - were you using something that left a mark ala felt tip pen - were you able to simulate cuts to tendons and artiries on the arms which would have rendered his other defenses more useless? can you expain how you attack, and how he defended better? i mean even guro edgar said in a knife fight one or both of you will die leo gaje teaches you to run away - he teaches escape a long time before he teaches blocks strips counters etc
9/8/06 1:22 AM
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Marc_Scott
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Edited: 08-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 2209
Russian Judo
Steve, I will tell you how I look at defense of edged weapons: I am not concerened with facing a "knife" fighter I am more concerned with facing a con or street punk who is pretty much going to resort to a dedicated attack using strong underhand, or strong downward stabbing. The reason this is my main area of concern is that this is what people are most likely to face based on evidence I have seen. The evidence is from videos of knife attacks, interviews with victims, witnesses, and on a few occasion inmates who have done the stabbing. I came at Marc as agressivelly as I would any other time, I did things like grab him by the back of the neck and start shanking, aggressive push and stabs, etc... Did I manage to hit Marc at any time? Of course, but if I had managed to not hit him once I would assume I was not going hard enough. Bottom line what Marc showed me worked well against me as a dedicated attacker.
9/8/06 2:48 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 08-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 342
Woof All: Marc identifies a key point here: "I am not concerened with facing a "knife" fighter I am more concerned with facing a con or street punk who is pretty much going to resort to a dedicated attack using strong underhand, or strong downward stabbing. "The reason this is my main area of concern is that this is what people are most likely to face based on evidence I have seen. The evidence is from videos of knife attacks, interviews with victims, witnesses, and on a few occasion inmates who have done the stabbing." Marc and I (btw because Marc and I both are named "Marc" for clarity lets call me MD or CD in this thread) have the same thought here and this thought underpins the logic of the material in this DVD. I would express the probable angles as forehanded thrusts and slashes, but that is a minor detail to the larger point. Part of the solution needs to be in the selection and cultivation of a good fence. The distinctive expression I offer I call the Kali Fence because I think it is going to be taken up by many and I want the Art to receive the credit. I think it very good for LEO purposes for field interview and firearm retention as well and for anologous civilian purposes too. Because the angles of armed and unarmed attack within the reactionary gap are usually the same, the responses need to be the same whether the hand has a knife in it or not. This is FMA 101. The principal technique offered here is "the Dog Catcher". One of the features of the DC is desigend to create an angle that allows for re-opening distance at a favorable angle allowing for firearm access. Anyway, my day takes me elsewhere now. CD
9/8/06 5:45 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 08-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 11834
thanks MS good point (no pun intended) - interesting that you say you've seen video to support your statements = i cant remember who i was training with - or even what art - but, i know i felt them to be credible but they were telling me that there are many street punks/hoods - that partice knife - not FMA - just their own style and came up wth a system (which i guess is how all MA's started) as far as the video - did you see surviving edged weapons? the show cons in the yard practising knife fighting, and they certainly looked like they knew what they were doing - anyway - you do make some valid points, and as i havent attacked marc to see if it works or not, i'll take your word for it -
9/9/06 1:07 AM
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BreakUnose
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Edited: 09-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 586
I haven't seen the material but I can say that I know Marc Scott and I trust his opinion fully. Marc would not b.s. especially on this topic as we've seen in the past:) If Marc S. says it's legit then I'm intrigued. The Dog Bros. influenced my approach towards weapon training a lot, especially early on. Obviously I have interest in this topic so I'd really like to check this material out. Jerry
9/9/06 12:45 PM
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Marc_Scott
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Edited: 09-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 2211
Russian Judo
Steve, I have seen"Surviving Edged Weapons" and recall the section you are taking about. As well the Aryan Brotherhood members recently brought to trial discussed there own method of stabbing. Most of it though is rather simple and limited by the weapons they have on hand. Their styles seem to come out of what is available, namely shorter weapons with little slashing ability, but great penetrative damage. Against a trained highly effective knife practioner your chances of survival diminish greatly, that is the sad truth. No one can teach a system that is 100% effective, so I think Marc's title of "Die less Often" is appropriate. But what can be done though is teach people who may have to deal with suprise ambush knife attacks some methods to overcome them so that the odds may be tilted in their favor, this is far more effective then simply telling them that there is nothing they can do. Here are some videos which I feel illustrate what the typical level of force and aggressiveness will be faced and the level you need to train against at a minimum: AGRESSIVE REVERSE GRIP ATTACKS <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FyiZLvHC2rM"></param></object> INMATE STABS CORRECTIONS OFFICER <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/veJHsxq6Dg0"></param></object> INMATE STABS INMATE <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lnR5ZcOunzg"></param></object> STORE CLERK STABBED DURING ROBBERY <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ddf-rjTtJ9s"></param></object> GOLDSTORE ROBBERY IN THAILAND <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pmv4p8eXkzs"></param></object>
9/9/06 6:23 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 09-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 11843
jerry - i didnt say i doubted him
9/10/06 3:07 AM
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BreakUnose
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Edited: 10-Sep-06
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Posts: 587
Steve, Cool, man. I wasn't addressing you. I was just sharing an opinion. Jerry
9/10/06 12:22 PM
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sreiter
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Edited: 10-Sep-06
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Posts: 11844
cool
9/11/06 10:45 AM
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rayfloro
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Edited: 11-Sep-06
Member Since: 11/25/2002
Posts: 1003
I was priviledged enough to train with Crafty in my last visit to LA........ We both sparred and compared techniques and concepts. His defence against the knife had close similarities to my approach. I wouldn't hesitate to recommending it............ As I would recommend Jerry Wetzel's Red Zone knife defence Raymond Floro www.florofighting.com
9/12/06 1:22 PM
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Islanddogg
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Edited: 12-Sep-06 05:07 PM
Member Since: 10/04/2002
Posts: 43
Steve- You bring up some good issues. I will throw in my two cents to offer an additional perspective. I have only seen the promo for "Die Less Often", so, obviously, I can't give a full commentary on the whole approach. To me, "dying less often" just means increasing the probabilities of surviving an assault from an edged weapon or firearm. I have been playing with this stuff for 30 years now, as well as keeping a keen eye on what other people are doing in this area. From what I can see of the promo clip, Marc's approach seems to be somewhat similar to what people who have been working on realistic knife and gun defenses have been evolving over the years. I think his approach is a good contribution and will help in the progression of the overall development in this area. As far as the magic marker drill, while this may be one tool of evaluation, I am not really of the opinion that this is a true litmus test for a knife defense. I believe that many slash and/or penetrating types of injuries are not only highly survivable, but, oftentimes, may not even hinder a person's ability to defend himself. There are many examples of people in fights who were cut multiple times but did not even realize they were injured until after everything was over. As you can see in a couple of the above videos, people can take multiple cuts while still being able to put up a fight. After watching a session with a magic marker, many people come away with the attitude that a fight against a knife wielding opponent is hopeless. I believe that thinking that "someone will die" is a type of learned helplessness that is counterproductive to what is actually possible against these types of attacks. Real life show that people often survive knife attacks, even when they have no training at all. I also believe the committed "balls to the wall", real-life attacker is just as dangerous, if not more so, to the unarmed defender than are "trained knifefighters" many of whom have probably never stabbed someone for real in their lives. I'm not sure if simunitions were used, but, obviously, this would be a good drill to include into anyone's training. Just as it is important to have a variety of tools in an unarmed fight, the same applies to a weapons attack. As you can see in the videos above, running away is oftentimes not an option. I think it is important to have the tools to engage an armed attacker if that is what the situation requires. I believe these tools increase the probability of surviving these types of attack, even after receiving injuries.
9/13/06 7:56 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 13-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 11857
Islanddogg - i agree with what you'r saying about survivablity with slashs - but slashing the right tendons (which is key) is what i'm talking about - you know slashing the right tendons will prevent one from closing a fist, etc.
9/13/06 1:38 PM
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Islanddogg
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Edited: 13-Sep-06 01:39 PM
Member Since: 10/04/2002
Posts: 44
Steve- I think that "cutting the tendons" is somewhat of a myth. While severing a tendon will stop movement produced by the attachement of that specific muscle, tendonous tissues are very tough and severing them is relatively hard to do. Also, most joints have multiple tendon attachments, so each of these attachments would also have to be severed to stop movement in that joint. I believe it is easier to shut down movement by cutting through the muscle belly and severing the contractile units that are responsible for movement, and even this is quite difficult to do against a moving, resisting opponent.
9/13/06 2:11 PM
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BreakUnose
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Edited: 13-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 588
... Well said Islanddogg:) Jerry
9/14/06 9:51 AM
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sreiter
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Edited: 14-Sep-06
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Posts: 11860
lol @ jerry - NOT AGAIN!!!!!!!!!! island - i'm going by medical pict's i've seen as well as all the tests i've seen cold steel do - things like hang a side of beef and with the hack of a six inch folder the thing opens up like a virgin on prom night
9/14/06 11:18 AM
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Islanddogg
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Edited: 14-Sep-06 11:27 AM
Member Since: 10/04/2002
Posts: 45
Hey Steve: Cutting a side of beef is along the lines of my reference to cutting the contractile fibers that are responsible for movement. Cutting into a side of beef usually involves the muscle fibers and not the tendonous attachments- at least in the instances of which I am aware. As far as the medical texts, I would be interested in checkng them out. Can you provide a reference to them? Did they have comments regarding the circumstances and extent of the tendon damage and how it affected the functioning of the joint?
9/15/06 3:43 AM
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BreakUnose
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Edited: 15-Sep-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 589
LOL! Sorry Steve:) Jerry

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