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LEOGround >> MMa or BJJ in P/O tactics


10/2/06 7:34 PM
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nelson riddle
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Edited: 02-Oct-06
Member Since: 09/16/2006
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I teach ground defense to Police Officers at my agency. I am now looking at the H2H. I believe that if you look at the techniques, analyze it for what it can be used for you will be able to safely put together a good,useful program. You just need to remember to seperate the sport aspect and teach what you as a Police Officer can use on the street. Play with this with ALL of your gear on and see what works. What gear do you lose when doing a double leg, what gear is vulnerable during any and all of the techniques.
10/12/06 9:20 AM
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itsahak
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Edited: 12-Oct-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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I teach some ground work for the local academy. One thing i do not teach is locks and submissions. Many of the Deputy's that I teach may not have back up for 20 to 45 minutes. Holding an armbar for that long may begin to push into execessive force, will definitly tire the Deputy out, and due to not always being able to choose your side may put your weapon at risk. Also most submission holds/locks do not have to take the +1 rule into effect.
10/3/07 10:51 PM
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swmnbjjer1
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Edited: 03-Oct-07
Member Since: 09/23/2007
Posts: 57
BJJ, try to eliminate alot of unessary strikes and use more control moves and position
11/5/07 5:10 PM
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Kalel
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Edited: 05-Nov-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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We teach joint locks, especially if the force is justified we show them to break. we have a circular use of force continium (sp) Due to backup being a long time coming, If your officers are involved in a hand to hand struggle with a gun involved (there own) they should be trained to take out (subdue-stop the violent action etc..) ASAP. Are DT is predicated on Taser, Pepper spray, a lot of great Baton Training, wrestling and Ground techniques to get them back on thier feet and transition to Baton, Taser firearm etc..
1/19/08 2:26 AM
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supersaiyan
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Edited: 19-Jan-08
Member Since: 03/20/2002
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lmao@ holding an armbar for 45 min!!
2/14/08 6:18 PM
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Burton
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Edited: 14-Feb-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1349
JKDU--MMA For The Street, BJJ, Kali
I teach a blend of MMA, but with the uniform on. You have to protect your weapon, you need to defend against clothing grabs, and you should be able to apply collar chokes from many positions. If you choke a guy out, you can cuff him and do a little post-fight stretching while you wait for your back-up. I'll be at the ILEETA in April if anyone has questions on my program.
2/15/08 1:42 AM
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pfsjkd
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Edited: 15-Feb-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Burton, a lot of departments/agencies prohibit chokes except for a deadly force situation.  If you're teaching LEOs, you might wanna emphasize that your training doesn't authorize them to go outside their dept. policy if you don't do do this already.  I know more than a couple guys who would think it's OK if they went to a 'LEO H2H Course' that advocated this in a non-deadly force scenario.
2/16/08 2:40 AM
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Burton
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Edited: 16-Feb-08
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JKDU--MMA For The Street, BJJ, Kali
Yes, I should have made it clear that the choke and any other defensive tactics must be used in line with the force continuum for the specific agency. These considerations are why I say that LEOs have the most difficult job, due to their many legal constraints. So, I should have said that when authorized, the choke is the most reliable H2H fight ender. Thanks pfsjkd
2/16/08 12:40 PM
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pfsjkd
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Edited: 16-Feb-08
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I figured you were responsible enough to make it clear in your seminars, Burton.  Just wanted to be clear here, too.
2/26/08 6:57 PM
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Demitrius Barbito
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Edited: 26-Feb-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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The CSPT
Defensive Tactics is a sticky business. We know what works to stop violence and we know how to train it. It's the "implementation" that is hard for LEOs. Force Option Continuums vary from Dept to Dept and especially from state to federal level. Trying to develop an "easy to swallow caplet" has been a problem for a long time. I worked with DHS a while back with Counter Knife and Intermediate Force Options Integration. They had just been givin a green light to develop a program that they thought was "functional". Most Depts don't get that. They have to follow a set of guidelines that protect the state from prosecution and not the officer from harm. "There has to be a better way!" - (Said in my best Billy Mays voice) Demi www.DemiBarbito.com
3/3/08 3:32 AM
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CUFFS137
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Edited: 03-Mar-08
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 118
All that said, and as I have been known to say in the past...Any viable police physical tactics ciriculum, should have a robust grappling component. Police physical tactics are not defensive, but in fact should be offensive in nature with the goal of getting the BG into handcuffs. A cop can't settle for surviving an attack, but rather has a duty to take his/her attacker into custody. Grappling techniques cover the entirerange of the levels of force, and are more defendable than say, boxing. Anyone on this forum knows that Grappling (BJJ) can be relatively gentle, all the way to downright deadly w/out appearing overly violent. A few entities have put a great amount of study into this subject and have come out with very good products. Specifically, the Gracie Academy with their police/military version of Gracie Combatives, and the SBG guys who came up with the ISR Matrix ciriculum. Both of these physical tactics programs are heavy on the grappling.
3/10/08 9:59 PM
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Burton
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Edited: 10-Mar-08
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JKDU--MMA For The Street, BJJ, Kali
Yes, and under severe grappling situations, the choke is the best bet as it incapacitates the assailant regardless of what kind of drugs he is on. The application, though, must be altered for the LEO environment.
4/4/08 3:35 AM
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Derek Tomchek
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Edited: Apr 4 2008 12:00A
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What level holster do you guys issue/carry? Ours is a mandatory level III from uncle mikes. Thumb break, turn, rock, pull. Sounds like a lot but when you get used to it and have thousands of draws it is quite easy. Plus what are the firearm qualification requirements? We have an 80% minimum (40 out of 50) which is higher than most.Back to the holster the higher retention level makes it easier to conduct ground/bjj techniques due to the amount of movements needed to remove your weapon. I am the h2h, firearms, pr-24, armorer for my department and I intertwine a lot of bjj/mma into my classes and a lot of weapons drws from the back/ground clinch etc. I require a thiusand draws from the various positions before I certify you.
6/15/08 9:09 PM
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Shire
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KombatZoneMMA, President
I have been teaching in NE Indiana for 25 years. Most cops dont train, but you guys know this. I think they just need work on the basics, my DPTS system teaches takedowns and controls to get the guy on his stomach for the handcuffs. No other stuff is really proper, no need for arm bars or things that take away from the objective, GET THEM IN CUFFS while keeping safe.
6/28/08 4:49 AM
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Ze Dano
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triangle with long leg away from weapon=perfect control
7/6/08 10:52 PM
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FJJ828
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C., Owner
www.isrmatrix.org
10/30/08 8:45 AM
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WTXMMA
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I am a certified instructor in Gracie Combatives, SPEAR, and PPCT. I also have a purple belt in BJJ and have fought in 14 pro fights. With all this I can tell you the best way to do all this as a DT system is to teach a basic SPEAR or PPCT system along with ground escapes to rookies thru intermediate guys. You can really only teach the advanced grappling and striking techniques to those Officers who have enough motivation to utilize them correctly (per your dept. use of force continuum) and not go to black trying to think of how to do the "cool new move"
11/4/08 8:55 AM
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FJJ828
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C., Owner
PPCT? Owtch.
11/4/08 10:53 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Officers don't want to train

Departments don't want to change

States don't want to take any chances

Stop trying to change the system.

Train on your own, and do what it takes to get home.

I have not seen anything of real value if you have to play by there rules.

J.M.
11/6/08 7:29 PM
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Shire
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Edited: 11/06/08 7:31 PM
Member Since: 4/29/02
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KombatZoneMMA, President
I did PPCT for years, they wont except better techniques even with Doctors letters ( I did that). With 37 years MA experience, 25 years teaching cops, DPTS was developed after research and testing against trained fighters. This system works for 99% of cops, despite their size and physical condition. Many training systems out there are only exist so some guy with little or no real fighting experience and never worked as a cop can make some money teaching stuff to gullible agencies.

I met one whom used MY gym for a cop class for area agencies, He had never fought in competition, never was a cop, but some how he is an expert because he has a web site.
Give me a break!
2/27/09 4:47 PM
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FJJ828
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C., Owner
Joe Maffei - Officers don't want to train

Departments don't want to change

States don't want to take any chances

Stop trying to change the system.

Train on your own, and do what it takes to get home.

I have not seen anything of real value if you have to play by there rules.

J.M.


Thinking outside the box doesn't only apply to your tactics, but your presentation as well. While I can't speak for the state, being an officer, trainer and now somewhat of an administrator, I can say that the first two are in your capacity to change.

www.isrmatrix.org
4/18/09 2:14 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Member Since: 12/29/06
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I agree that ISRMatrix is one of the best.

What every LEO should do, imo, is:
Stay in shape - that's job 1. If you're in shape and can run, then you have 80-90% of what is needed in the field. If you run down the perp and he's tired, your job is made a lot easier. But, even if you have superior fight skills, if you're too fat or too tired once you catch up with them, your skills and perception are out the window as you're gasping for breath.

Try to analyze the situations you'll be in and have been in and learn what you need to get the job done. Don't waste time doing useless stuff. If all the LEOs are doing curls and bench pressing, but are much too heavy to run a quarter mile, then they're expending their time on things that are not helpful. Be good at the basics, use your brain and don't try to be Rambo.

4/26/09 3:43 PM
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effinggoof
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"Many training systems out there are only exist so some guy with little or no real fighting experience and never worked as a cop can make some money teaching stuff to gullible agencies."

TT motherfucking T.
8/20/09 10:15 PM
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GAME-DOG
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gun
8/30/09 10:22 PM
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IP
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It's no wonder there isn't a "perfect" plan for the instruction of in-service training; specifically, tactical stuff. Consider the following as just some of the perishable skills cops are expected to know:

-Defensive tactics (use of force laws, search/handcuffing, takedowns, ground control/defense, carotid restraint, weapon retention, impact weapons, ECDs, OC, etc...)
-Firearms (handgun, shotgun, carbines)
-Driving (defensive, pursuit)
-Small team tactics (building/room clearing, open area searches, high risk car stops, etc...)
-Crowd control

Now, factor in other mandated training requirements, along with very limited training time (my dept. allots 5 days a year) and many cops who are mildly interested.

This thread has been focused on DT, and to some extent - only self-defense. How do you successfully instruct a dept. to a competent level in all of this?

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