UnderGround Forums
 

TMA UnderGround >> What are your views on Aikido?


11/1/06 2:22 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FatBuddha
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 01-Nov-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 6102
 
1. Is it a fair criticism to say that you never see aikido practioners in judo tournaments? 2. Is it good only for unsuspecting drunks? 3. Why do places like the Tokyo Police Academy still incorporate it? 4. If it is a "functional" style, how long does it take to become proficient? 5. Has all the mystical mumbo jumbo ruined it's useful aspects or "harder" versions like Yoshinkan Aikido? 6. What do you say about the judo blackbelts that supposedly switched from judo to aikido? 7. Did Kano really respect aikido or was he just playing politics?
11/3/06 4:07 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GaydarBlane
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03-Nov-06
Member Since: 08/13/2003
Posts: 5337
1. Yes. I know of Aikido people who randori with Judoka. They are mostly destroyed. 2. No. 3. It's good for compliance. If you are attempting to control somebody via arm control and you must do so on a regular basis, then it is good. Much of the "resistance" an officer may receive isn't full on fight-type resistance. 4. It's functional for certain people doing certain jobs. Functional for the average guy looking to protect himself in the street? Not really. 5. No. The cooperative training has as has the curriculum. 6. To each their own. 7. I think he respected it. I think somebody adept at judo who has a good idea of fully resistant, close-range grappling and unbalancing is better equipped to appy Aikido techniques in randori when they present themselves than a guy who has only done Aikido. It supplements a judoka's skills without him having to learn different principles.
11/16/06 11:44 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TerreM
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 16-Nov-06
Member Since: 04/24/2006
Posts: 33
Look up Minoru Mochizuke. He was a 8 or 9 Dan Kano student sent to study Aiki jutsu with Ueshiba (pre WW2). There is a book about the pre WW2 Aiki (more functional, less mystical mumbo jumbo). If you look for it you can find such training.
11/16/06 12:02 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GaydarBlane
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 16-Nov-06
Member Since: 08/13/2003
Posts: 5472
Yes. Put you'll have to move your entire life to find it... It's not like it's in every town, state, or even region.
12/6/06 6:17 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ottmandus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 06-Dec-06
Member Since: 11/19/2002
Posts: 215
Aikido demos always seem choregraphed to me. I think these gus who give demos should do it on people other than their students. It would show if they have the control to beat without hurting that Akido is suppose to possess or if students are trained to flip (breakfall) when certain techniques are applied. I took traditional jujitsu for a while and we had to slap the mat when we hit the ground. I think some of that was to produce a loud noise so the throw sounded devastating. I still grapple some and I have found slapping the mat to be somewhat unnecasry
12/7/06 5:25 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Naughty Gorilla
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 07-Dec-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 13557
TUh, that's normal in judo. It's called a breakfall. "I took traditional jujitsu for a while and we had to slap the mat when we hit the ground. I think some of that was to produce a loud noise so the throw sounded devastating. I still grapple some and I have found slapping the mat to be somewhat unnecasry"
12/14/06 5:56 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ottmandus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 14-Dec-06
Member Since: 11/19/2002
Posts: 216
Yeah but do the same breakfall without slapping the mat and (to meany way) it seems just as effective but just rolling into it just doesn't make that exciting bang when you hit . In one sparring session I was in I performed a sag headlock and the guy I was throwing put his arm out to slap the mat and since it was a sag throw and not a flip I dislocated his shoulder.
12/24/06 5:48 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
ottmandus
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 24-Dec-06
Member Since: 11/19/2002
Posts: 221
by the way in judo contests at high levels how often do you see the traditional breakfalls? That would give your opponent ippon and I can't recall mat-slapping but haven't watched much more than whats available on the net
1/13/07 4:45 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jimmyok
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 13-Jan-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 459
Aikido is okay if the school "randoris" its techniques, e.g. Shodokan (Tomiki) style. Along with randori, the school/dojo should be one that can handle the occasional fat lip, sprained wrist, bruise, etc. Aikido schools that randori can be hard to find, and even some of those schools don't randori hard enough. Somebody gets a bloody nose & they freak out. I'm not advocating high injury rates, but the occasional strain, sprain, or bruise is inevitable in martial arts. And if you employ shomen-ate (straight palm-thrust to face) in randori, fat lips and bloody noses will sometimes happen too. Jimmy O'Curry
1/24/07 12:37 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
karasu
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 24-Jan-07
Member Since: 12/30/2004
Posts: 1126
if you like it and enjoy it, then aikido great. Many MMA people look down on TMA, many TMA people look down on Aikido and it's lame. If something brings enjoyment to your life, then that is what is most important because you can train all the *insert MA here* you want and Fedor would still beat your A$$.
5/11/07 12:05 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
78 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 11-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 33032
For what it's worth: I saw a Hapkido guy take a kickboxer down and submit him at a demonstration once. It was cool. The KB guy thought he was a badass. The Hap master circled him and did what looked like a fast jab. He was actually grabbing the guy's hand when the KB guy did a boxing style open handed jab-block. The Hap guy grabbed the hand, launced forward and did a sharp wrist lock with his whole weight behind it. KB dude instantly almost jumped to the ground and had his wrist pinned to the floor while it was being twisted. He tapped in under 1 second. It helped that the Hap guy had studied wrestling, Muai Thai, and judo :) That was cool.
5/12/07 9:59 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TerribleTed
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12-May-07
Member Since: 10/14/2004
Posts: 485
I had an Akido guy Uki for me for my ikkyu (Judo) test and he was awesome. He made me look like Koga -- he would jump into my throws. Don't know if that is a tenant of Akido, but if you are testing in Judo, that is the guy you want for a ukiu during the technique review portion.
5/12/07 11:47 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Willybone
384 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 12-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 27327
you never see aikido practioners in judo tournaments?
Most of the locks in aikido aren't legal in competitive judo.
5/13/07 8:30 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
JesseL
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 13-May-07
Member Since: 03/01/2007
Posts: 4
I know the Japanese army was going to use Akido during world war 2 but they said it was not effective for the soldier. Insted the use the karate reverse punch and the front kick.
5/13/07 9:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WaltJ
29 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 13-May-07
Member Since: 08/19/2003
Posts: 14134
1. I never see them. And where I compete Hudson Valley Yudanshakai (NJ/NY) if they weren't physically able, they'd probably literally get killed. It wouldn't be funny and I wouldn't even want to witness it. 2. It's concepts are great and can be applied to any style of fighting, and I've personally witnessed LEO and military people use its techniques with effectiveness because they fuse the concepts and techniques together through resistance training. 3. I'd be lying if I gave an answer to this question, because I've never been there and just don't know. 4. It's got a pretty steep learning curve. Not only to apply the techniques in an Aikido-context, but then you have to add on being able to apply them from clinch range and on the ground. 5. The mystical mumbo-jumbo has made it a more recreational martial art. While there are still harder styles of it, they're usually pretty rare to find. 6. Most people can't keep with the physical rigors of Judo forever and want to find something a little easier. Also, they may want to explore another area of their training that they were never able to before because they were always so concerned with only using what got winning results. 7. Being a Jujutsu man, I'm sure Kano saw some positives in it. Aikido was probably practiced differently in that time, as well.
5/15/07 10:12 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Streetwise
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 1241
It is really hard to characterize Aikido as being any one thing. Even more than other TMA, there is an incredibly wide range of diferences from dojo to dojo. At one place you will hear "Ki is really just LOVE, man." and see uke being so cooperative that you will wonder why these guys bothered to get off the couch and come to training. At the next, every moment from entering the dojo is an exercise in focus and ritualized violence, with sticks, bokken, and staffs flying around. I have seen places where hard contact randori (often with some striking allowed)is a nightly requirement for advanced students and I have seen places where the only bruise ever received was when a guy dropped a lava lamp on his foot. The "Ki is LOVE" AikiHippie-do place had a lot more students, though, and may be the sad future of the art.
5/15/07 11:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FlashGordon2002
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 05/23/2002
Posts: 12058
by the way in judo contests at high levels how often do you see the traditional breakfalls? That would give your opponent ippon and I can't recall mat-slapping but haven't watched much more than whats available on the net -------------------- That's because at the high levels, the guys are trying to turn onto their stomachs as they're thrown or in extreme cases, cartwheel out of the throws.
5/15/07 11:50 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
78 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 15-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 33169
Also, check out Ueshiba's training history. He didn't start out at age 30 doing aikido. He mastered, pretty much, karate, wrestling, judo, jui jitsu, kenjutsu, aikijutsu, etc. before developing his system. I believe that if you got good at maui thai, judo, sub. wresting/BJJ, THEN learned aikido, you might could make it work. I was hoping BJJ or GJJ was going to evolve for us older guys soon, but after seeing Royce vs. Hughes, I hold out no hope. I wrestled a smallish San Soo master that had added BJJ to his scope and it was killer. Totally frustrating for me. A week later I watched him wrestle a HUGE collegiante wrestling teacher and pin him with a wrist lock. The big guy got up and said, "that was just a wrist lock though," and the reply was, "yeah, but it's YOUR wrist." I know my responses are a little off topic, but I'm trying to promote the idea that aikido can be MORE than just wrist locks and some schools teach more than just wrist locks.
5/16/07 11:09 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FlashGordon2002
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 16-May-07
Member Since: 05/23/2002
Posts: 12075
Actually, I think Ueshiba was an accomplished sumo wrestler. I think you may have something, though. I think a wrestler, judoka, etc. could make some of the Aikido stuff work because they could fully commit to a technique knowing that if they messed up, they could fall back on their previous training...a person who has only trained Aikido doesn't have that security blanket and may find it difficult to fully commit. Plus, going back to Ueshiba...all this previous training and his experiences (going off on crazy Japanese nationalist adventures in Manchuria) all contributed to making him what he was...to expect his students to become like him without going through the same process, i.e. develop mad wrestling skills and going off on a crazy nationalist crusade where you got to kill people for some militaristic agenda, is a bit naive.
5/17/07 1:43 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WizzleTeats
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 17-May-07
Member Since: 06/07/2006
Posts: 1803
Ueshiba studied a lot of arts, and he was also a tank when he was a young man--built like a wrestler in fact. There's a pic of him when he was in his 50's and he was one imposing looking dude. As far as I know most of his training was in various jujitsu styles,culminating with his final teacher who taught his own style of aikijujitsu. I find it funny when people denigrate the "mumbo-jumbo" in aikido, when it was Uesshiba himself who was responsible for it. Like any other TMA, aikido has been corrupted by American laziness and softness. The fact is the average person simply isn't willing to bleed and would rather hear fairy tales. Also, the reason you never see aikido practicioners compete (ohter than the fact that most aikido people aren't fighters) is that competition is against what aikido teaches. I'm not sure if it's "against the rules" per se but it's definately not encouraged. I think Stronghold has it right. If you can already fight aikido is great--you can do it for the rest of your life.
5/17/07 11:38 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jsteinmann
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 17-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 213
There is an enormous about of mysticism and legend that has built up around Ueshiba over the years, including about his training. The "trained in 8000 different arts" thing is a bit of an exaggeration, as far as I'm aware. I'm fairly certain he had done some sumo/wrestling in his youth, and he was noted for being crazy strong. He did a lot of manual labor in his youth. The vast majority of his training came from Sokaku Takeda, who taught a system called Daito-Ryu (sometimes called Daito-Ryu Aikijutsu). Takeda was, by most accounts, a very good, and borderline psychopathic. Aikido is Ueshiba's interpretation of Daito, based on his own experiences and very heavily influenced by his philosophical and religious beliefs. Ueshiba was definitely responsible for the "mumbo-jumbo". The truth is, you cannot separate the "mumbo-jumbo" from the Aikido. If you want an Aiki-like system without the philosophy, look to Daito Ryu. Maybe some of the Koryu, many of which have Aiki techniques within their systems. Ueshiba was also firmly anti-competition: "There are no contests in Aikido. A true warrior is invincible because he or she contests with nothing. Defeat means to defeat the mind of contention that we harbor within." So criticizing Aikido practitioners for not competing sort of misses the point. A good Aikidoka isn't supposed to compete. It violates the very tenets the art is founded on. It's also worth noting that Ueshiba, by some accounts, wasn't a very good teacher. He was a good FIGHTER, but a lot of times, his answers to simple questions ("how do I make this lock work") would end up being ridiculous, complex, and not very helpful ("you must harmonize with the earth and your spirit, blah, blah, blah...). So many of his students not only were learning a system that was the culmination of his experience, and they weren't getting good instruction while doing it. In the four and a half years that I spent doing Aikido, I met very few people who could actually make it work. Those who could often, but not always, had some previous training. But the truth is, there were also plenty of Aikidoka I met who really didn't care...they were interested in the art as a meditative practice, not as a way to kick someone's ass. I don't think I could ever go back to it (if for no other reason than my wrists are shot after my time in it), but I don't think the art deserves all the flack it gets. That said, there are some crazy granola-crunching hippies in it that used to drive me up a wall. But hey, Ueshiba was kind of a crazy granola-crunching hippy himself, or at least the Japanese equivalent. So I can't entirely blame them.
5/17/07 12:29 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
WizzleTeats
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 17-May-07
Member Since: 06/07/2006
Posts: 1808
Hahaha...dude, do you have any pics of you rocking the hakama? That would be sweet.
5/17/07 12:35 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jsteinmann
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 17-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 215
Probably. I'll see if I can dig 'em up. For good or ill though, I have no pics of me rocking the Hakama with long hair. 'Cause that would truly sweet.
5/18/07 10:54 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FlashGordon2002
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 18-May-07
Member Since: 05/23/2002
Posts: 12134
"He was a good FIGHTER, but a lot of times, his answers to simple questions ("how do I make this lock work") would end up being ridiculous, complex, and not very helpful ("you must harmonize with the earth and your spirit, blah, blah, blah...)." This probably has something to do with the fact that he was probably certifiable. You say Takeda was psychopathic. Ueshiba wasn't exactly playing with a full deck, himself. "Those who could often, but not always, had some previous training." Like...Ueshiba and his early students. "That said, there are some crazy granola-crunching hippies in it that used to drive me up a wall." Don't get me started - I only took Aikido for a summer (I learned my breakfalls in it!) but I also studied Chinese internal arts for a while and there were a lot of flakes there as well. "But hey, Ueshiba was kind of a crazy granola-crunching hippy himself, or at least the Japanese equivalent." The hippies I met in the internal arts were mainly harmless hippies. I don't think Ueshiba fits in that category. I'd put him in the "Reverend Jim Jones" category.
5/21/07 10:00 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
jsteinmann
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 21-May-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 217
"This probably has something to do with the fact that he was probably certifiable. You say Takeda was psychopathic. Ueshiba wasn't exactly playing with a full deck, himself." Oh, there are plenty of good reasons why Ueshiba might have been a lousy teacher (his own peculiar psychoses being one of them). "Like...Ueshiba and his early students." Yup. "Don't get me started - I only took Aikido for a summer (I learned my breakfalls in it!) but I also studied Chinese internal arts for a while and there were a lot of flakes there as well." I can imagine. "The hippies I met in the internal arts were mainly harmless hippies. I don't think Ueshiba fits in that category. I'd put him in the "Reverend Jim Jones" category." I suppose I could see that. If I remember correctly, that Japanese government certainly wasn't fond of the ?moto-ky?, or it's members.

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.