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TMA UnderGround >> What are your views on Aikido?


5/21/07 10:53 AM
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Stronghold
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Edited: 21-May-07
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If you want to learn a combat tested fighting system I would say 'san soo' but it, too, is now mostly taught by hippie types and Jimmy Woo's stuff is watered down now. Dallas has a san soo guy that is the real deal but he can't seem to keep a school open. But, while I was at his school, I studied sub. wrestling and pancrase. A lot of the san soo guys would try the wrestling or even boxing and give up after 2 or 3 classes (maybe 5 boxing classes) because it takes a high hard ass quotient to get good at. But, the coupla guys that did it all for years were very sneaky on the ground. It reminded me of wrestling someone whoe did Greco before doing BJJ actually.
7/22/07 5:40 PM
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The Sultan
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Edited: 22-Jul-07
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I trained Aikido for a little while and I found a lot of the moves to be elaborate, too time-consuming to learn and not very practical, IMO.
7/24/07 9:06 AM
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Stronghold
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Edited: 24-Jul-07
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Yeah, I believe people have had to over complicate Ueshiba's original techniques in order to get them to work for someone besides Morehi. The San Soo guy I trained under worked with Wally Jay for a long time and finally came to one conclusion - wrist locks have a limited application. He said he wound up doing 1 lock 1000 different ways but started out doing 1000 different locks for 1 end. But, there is MUCH more to aikido than wristlocks.
8/11/07 9:59 PM
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springy palm
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Edited: 11-Aug-07
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This is how modern combat aikido looks like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw
8/11/07 10:54 PM
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ronin0352
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Edited: 11-Aug-07
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Stronghold seems to have good points here. I trained for a few years. Like any other TMA, it depends on the teacher, IMO. My teacher had studied other TMAs before aikido and incorporated them in our studies as well as drawing from my wrestling/grappling experience. Like any really good teacher, he learned as much from everyone else as he taught and always sought to improve his own style. I always (and still) considered myself a novice in aikido, but he took me to other schools and to seminars where the "recreational" black belts' technique was just hideous. Even I could pick out the blatant flaws. oops, I'm rambling Back to the point, aikido can be an effective art if trained right. Finding a quality instructor is not easy though.
5/3/08 2:29 AM
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Jayhof
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Aikido is simply a reduced version of Daito Ryu. There are some principles of Daito Ryu jujitsu that are not taught in Aikido. Ueshiba added a lot of emphasis on blending and using your opponents energy against himself (etc) that is no so emphasized in Daito Ryu/Hakko Ryu. Daito Ryu/Hakko Ryu are martial arts that are known as "second arts". In other words, you carry a sword/gun or have some other martial art for fighting. Then, if you decide you want to capture an opponent, or defeat them without causing too much injury, then you use Daito Ryu/Hakko Ryu.

Some folks also explained it like this. Daito Ryu/Hakko Ryu are volumes 10 through fifteen of jujitsu. BJJ/Judo and other grappling arts are chapters one through nine of jujitsu. In other words, they are the same art, but the techniques in Daito Ryu/Hakko Ryu are more refined and more difficult to apply. Some are so esoteric that they cannot be hardly applied at all during competition, but they are so extremely painful that they are absolutely astonishing to the uninitiated.
5/4/08 9:54 PM
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e. kaye
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I have a friend that can make it work just fine.

5/5/08 2:46 AM
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Skpotamus
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I studied aikido for a while, it was almost completely crap with partners who make the techniques work by jumping and diving instead of the techniques actually working. A few of the techniques can and do work well for passive resisting opponents when you are trying to control or escort them (as in security, police jobs, etc), but those are so few that the art isn't worth studying for self defense. As an artform, it can be quite neat to watch, and if you enjoy it, then do it and enjoy it.

Using it in an actual fight I would have to see to believe.

The Jason Delucia vid looks more like Judo with some Shooto submissions than any Aikido I've ever seen.
5/5/08 8:38 AM
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Stronghold
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Supposedly, there is an 'old man' version of Sombo which is designed for the guy who's trained Sombo for a long time but has become too old to compete. It looks like San Soo or hard core aikido which might work, but good luck finding a teacher of that in the US.
6/5/08 11:46 PM
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VikingChoke
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does it really work against multiple assailants?
6/6/08 8:26 AM
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Stronghold
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If they are doing karate and not trying to tackle you, if might :)
8/21/08 7:20 PM
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DeGrouch
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I trained in Chin Na (Chinese art of seize and control) with techniques taken from Long Fist and White Crane and it seems a lot of the principles carry through to Aikido. I have to say the style had a lot more going for it then a few wrist locks. The principles reminded me of BJJ and the locks flowed from one technique to the other and included sweeps and throws. But its very hard to find someone that teaches it properly and can apply in a live situation, and even with the proper instruction it can take a long time to feel when the techniques are right.
8/22/08 8:55 AM
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Stronghold
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Did that art have the 'leg cut' technique? San Soo had it and I've found no other mention of it in MA books even though it is an amazing thing. A lot of San Soo deals with trapping feet and legs while standing and if you are not used to it, no can defense!! Chinese arts, I thought, taught this stuff...

Leg cut: if your opponent is standing in the classic one foot forward stance, you swing your same leg up a bit taking a step forward. You then drop your leg and weight on top of the inside of the opp's leg pushing their knee out. The trick is to drop your weight to the ground and not on them (like a wrestling pin is pushing to the ground and not on your opp.). Anyway, done right, the opp's leg wobbles out from under them and they fall down into a sitting position, you keep moving forward and step the other leg behind and around the opp. They wind up sitting in front of you and you can trap their arms and legs pretty easily at that point.

Also, just standing on a guy's foot then pulling his waist in that direction can topple just about anyone but only Chinese arts seem to teach this.
8/22/08 3:47 PM
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DeGrouch
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Stronghold - 
Leg cut: if your opponent is standing in the classic one foot forward stance, you swing your same leg up a bit taking a step forward. You then drop your leg and weight on top of the inside of the opp's leg pushing their knee out.

I havent seen this particular move but in Long Fist there is a similar technique called 8 steps to chase the cicada. From a left leg forward position in cat stance, step through and jump into the air, bring your 2 knees into the air and as you land extend your left leg and land with weight over your right leg in a squating stance (fu hu bu). Your lead leg comes down and strikes opponents lead knee. Its very hard to defend as its difficult to see whats coming and it can be followed by a spinning low sweep.
8/22/08 3:54 PM
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Stronghold
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A bit more complex than just, basically, stepping forward and downing your opponent...
8/22/08 10:37 PM
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smileythai
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 You talking about the shin to shin trip? Hook your foot behind their ankle and rock into their shin with yours. Little hard to get during live wrestling, but done right it takes someone down with minimal effort.

Matt Furey taught it as a shuai chiao technique when I trained with him.
8/23/08 12:52 PM
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DeGrouch
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smileythai -  You talking about the shin to shin trip? Hook your foot behind their ankle and rock into their shin with yours.


sorry stronghold I know the technique your talking about now. mater yang jwing ming teaches this technique as well follow the attached you tube link its around 5:48 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzbbiVitdvM&feature=related if your looking for more info check out www.ymaa.com for chin na dvd's and books.
8/23/08 1:45 PM
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Stronghold
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No, that's that not it but I did learn that one also in San Soo. Against a flat footed opponent, it can work!
8/24/08 6:41 PM
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DeGrouch
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Stronghold if you find a clip of that technique it would be great to see it. San Soo looks like a great style to learn if as you say you can find someone who is willing to teach it properly. Unfortunately with the politics of Chinese martials arts the techniques/sparing are often watered down which in turn leads to poor instructors that cant teach the fighting applications of the styles. Its a pity really as when thought properly Chinese arts can hold their own against any system.
8/24/08 7:27 PM
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kajakin
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If you want to learn a traditional martial art do aikido, if you want to learn how to fight, don't do aikido
9/18/08 1:11 PM
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TacFighter
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Aikido is great if you understand the necessity to attack your opponent the correct way. For those of you who don't know how to be good students here are some good Uke tips for you from Master Carey...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_JQoMEXdY8
9/29/08 9:36 AM
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Stronghold
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True. A lot of the high level hapkido I've seen is based on attacking someone and expecting them to defend against it in certain ways. The really good masters can flow from one techniqe to another so if you block a weird way or do soemthing unexpected, they can deal with that, too.

A great demo I saw had a uke respond to the master's attack and try to foil the eventual throw (from a lock). I think the uke wound up trying to tackle the old man and wound up on his stomach with the old man sitting on his back twisting his arm. That guy was good though. But the master didn't just stand there and wait for shit to happen, he made it happen.
10/27/08 6:42 PM
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Taku
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 My personal experience with Aikido is this:

From what I can tell Ueshiba was a good fighter. However, modern Aikido seems to have lost it's "alive" component. Too many schools and teachers seem to focus on the touchy-feely, "we're the non-violent martial art" crap, that Aikido gets less and less effective over time.

A guy I work with brought in video tape of his Third degree black belt test. I found it sad to say the least. The guys would attack with high energy and full intent, but everything they did was so totally telegraphed that anyone could have evaded, re-directed, their attacks. When a guy starts screaming and running at you from 20 feet away, how hard is it to get off-line and counter? 

I imagine (as has been stated above by some) that there must be some Aikido schools that retain an "alive" component to their training. If so I imagine that it could have some use.

If you want quick, effective self defense, take a basics couse from somone like KTF international or Fast Defense. If you are truly intrigued with Aikido, start by reading some books and then see if you can find a school (and most importantly a teacher) that feels like a good fit for you.

TAKU
10/31/08 12:32 AM
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Jove
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I studied some aikido a long time ago and enjoyed it a lot. There are some useful things I learned- how to fall, sensing the uki's balance, momentum, etc.
Most of the attacks which we practiced defending look quite silly in retrospect- like, uke would come running at you from 10 yards away with their arm raised up (telegraphic?)But maybe that was to help beginners (initially) understand how to use the momentum. Anyhow, I suspect that a lot of it was originally intended as empty-handed defense against a sword or knife attack. That might be a reason why the emphasis is on grabbing and controlling the wrist (if a bladed weapon is being used to attack), and why some attacks seem so very telegraphic (like a soldier charging with a raised sword on a battlefield?).
11/10/08 11:32 PM
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oblongo
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I've heard that some styles of aikido - specifically, Yoseikan, Yoshinkan, and Timiki - are more practical than Aikikai and other styles of aikido.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

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