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TMA UnderGround >> What are your views on Aikido?


8/5/09 5:17 PM
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e. kaye
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 As far as boxing goes, you are correct.    I only use a bag glove without wraps.   I also hit the bag ungloved.     Bare knuckle boxing is very different than gloved boxing.
8/5/09 5:21 PM
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Stronghold
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Not if are losing points by stalling and you actually wanted to win the match. Also, unlike the UFC or Pride, our coach would be in the ring 'encouraging' us to keep going. Expressions like "either get up or get moving or I'll kick your ass myself" did wonders for this :)

I am still hoping someone comes up with a way to mix hapkido/aikiWhatever/Greco with BJJ. Smaller guys need some advantage.
8/6/09 4:17 AM
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laqueus
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The issue with Hapkido is the way the curriculum is set up. Makes it pretty hard to learn well. With Aikido it seems organised better, but damn if I can bring myself to bow to a picture.
8/6/09 8:43 AM
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Stronghold
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Right, that's the problem with too many TMA, they spend more time bowing than training and there is all this hocum surrounding the art. BJJ got rid of ALL of that and look how effective it got very quickly. The San Soo I trained with had less of that and the master would roll with us.
9/15/09 9:44 PM
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Dojosensei
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Yoshinkan Aikido all the way here. Been studying/practicing off and on since 18 yrs old, now 35. Was hardcore into it until black belt then became more of a "when i have time" type of thing. Still love it though, would love to get back into teaching some traditional arts, spent too many years in MMA. Surprisingly you can utilize quite a few holds/throws in real life and it is great for restraint etc...
9/24/09 1:30 AM
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CyborgRoyce
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aikikai ikkyu here. been training for the last couple of years. i enjoy the training (it's a lot less mundane) and some of the underlying teachings. pretty steep learning curve though

as far as it's practically goes it might not be the absolute most effective but it's pretty alright for self defense. you learn how to handle multiple attackers and weapons taking etc. plenty of guys i know have saved themselves with it.
9/24/09 9:34 AM
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Stronghold
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As was brought up on another aikido thread; Ueshiba was a really tough guy and his aikido was affective because he was good at wrestling, boxing, karate, kendo, judo, etc. So, aikido may be an art for either the beginner to learn the beauty of movement OR the master to add to his arsenal to avoid conflict.

I wonder at this idea but it's not denying Ueshiba made it work for him.
10/7/09 11:55 AM
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laqueus
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I've found a lot of styles like that seem to be more suited for someone who can already fight.

It ties in with the cycles.

First you have grappling winning, then the strikers figure out grappling and striking starts winning, then the grapplers figure out striking and grappling wins again. Etc.

It's the same way with head kicks, first they don't work because the people who specialise them don't do anything else and get punched, leg kicked and taken down, but once they know all that they can make the head kicks work very well again.

We're already seeing the kick specialisation coming in with TKD, and Machida's also showing the Karate method of just keeping out of range and moving in to strike works quite well, but he has all the other bases. Undoubtedly he'll continue winning with Karate and more people will start just training that, and will end up sinking back to being ineffective because they overspecialise.
11/11/09 1:13 AM
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shen
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Edited: 11/11/09 2:10 AM
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Tonight I just went to watch a Yoseikan Aikido class (often morphed into Yoseikan Budo -a sport approach-- in other parts of the world).

This is the same style mentioned earlier in this thread.


It was intersting.

Just some thoughts...

Yoseikan is a style founded in 1931 by one of Kano's high ranking students, Minoru Mochizuki. It's a combo of early Aikido (actually Aikijujutsu), Judo, Shotokan & some Japanese weapon tradition -I think Katori Shinto Ryu.

At the class, during their "free practice" they retracted their punches, so it was a lot more realistic than most aikido. BUT, it also really showed just how ineffective the Aikido techniques themselves are against even slow telegraphed punches; the Black Belts couldn't really pull off the Aikido when they did their "freestyle" portion of class.

Typically, after a failed Aikido technique, they would clinch & throw with a basic Judo throw. On the ground their grappling was basic Judo Newaza / BJJ. It wasn't 100% randori, but more "Tori" & "Uke" with Uke resisting.

Notably, their Judo and newaza was more successful than their Aiki, in these sessions. Which makes sense because newaza & Judo are designed and evolved to "work" against resistance.

On the one hand, I was impressed by how much grappling the sensei allowed in class --he was NOT your typical grappling phobic Aikdo Sensei.

On the other hand, for the "100th time" It was shown to me just how fundamentally unworkable most Aikido is under pressure, even mild pressure. Not impossible to use, but it is the art for idealists in more ways than one. To work Aikido requires cooperation.

At the end of class, though the teacher did caution he wanted to see more Aikido, not just grappling in their free-practice. The problem is people will always gravitate to Judo & Grappling over Aikido, given an option, because they are simply more "high percentage"; Catching a punch out of the air and applying a "Kote Gaeshi" is borderline impossible, while throwing someone with a sloppy Headlock Hip throw or laying on them and cranking an "Ude Garami" (Americana) is well within reach of most people.

The teacher, BTW is the Top Yoseikan teacher in North America who trained in Japan as a live-in student for 7 years directly with the founder of Yoseikan . He is also a BB in Judo.

So in theory it's an interesting art. I was most disappointed by their Aikido. Sloppy Judo is understandable and their grappling was pretty OK, I'd say solid "BJJ mid-white belt" level to MAYBE Blue Belt for one guy who looked like he may study BJJ. But the Aiki-techniques themselves... just weren't happening. But I guess that is just the truth of Aikido in practice; it's fairly unworkable even for most Aikido Black Belts.

Apparently what the founder of Yoseikan's son did was take out the "unworkable" stuff and turn it into sort of a budo-based "MMA lite" type of style. It's quite popular in France. (You can find plenty of Yoseikan Budo sparring clips on Youtube if you want to see the more modern version of the art).

This teacher I went to was not of that lineage, but followed the original teachings of the father.

FWIW, the teacher and students were very friendly in the "typical" Aikido manner.
11/11/09 5:52 AM
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laqueus
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That's what I'm seeing more often these days. TMAs will continue with their curriculum but will include a reasonable basic MMA program to ensure they have some actual competence. Most of the time is still spent training the TMA component though, so there isn't much improvement.
11/11/09 1:23 PM
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Stronghold
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Sounds like the San Soo school I used to frequent, shen. The instructor added boxing and BJJ to his art so he could go toe to toe with anyone long enough to 'do this thing' as he put it. Since he trained some early UFC guys as well as golden gloves winners, I'd say he was on to something.

I think aikido was a MMA in its day. It combined different arts into one style. But, as has been said, it sounds like you had to be good at judo, aiki budo, and some karate before the aikido stuff really worked for you.

I thought about taking up tomiki style because, I was told, you could get a BB in under 2 years :) But, the hippie running the one school near me did not impress me.
11/11/09 3:01 PM
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shen
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Edited: 11/13/09 3:35 AM
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Tomiki is interesting... there is a pretty good teacher here in downtown Los Angeles (he teaches at USC I believe). He's a white guy but did well in competition in Japan. I watched his class like 7 years ago at the downtown YMCA

(BTW, I DON'T spend all my free time going to watch Aikido classes. LOL)

Tomiki competitions are very particular; I don't really understand them all that well.

You see a lot of stuff in Tomiki competition that seems fairly unimpressive (like very bad Judo) but once in a while you see a move pulled off in sparring that works great.


Many Aikido people don't seem to understand that ANY sport/martial art done in competition will not look nearly as "good" as when practicing it without resistance. They complain Tomiki doesn't "look" like Aikido. Well, they just don't seem to understand that the aesthetics of an art go out the window when both people are trying to win.
3/18/11 10:46 AM
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Stronghold
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This is the type of aikido I really want to try doing. With a solid MMA background and lots of time doing pancrase also, it looks like a stylized version of that. But, I'd have to move in to the Netherlands or may Alabama which is not a possibility.

3/20/11 5:12 PM
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twinkletoesCT
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 I'm fascinated
3/20/11 5:24 PM
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^Interesting.

While I'm pretty soured on aiki arts due to my own experiences, I believe the tomiki ryu competitions are a good example of how aikido can be functionalized. It ends up looking more like judo, but at least you get to see which wristlocks and throws work, and that's always cool.
3/21/11 11:58 AM
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Stronghold
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It really does... but the Yoseikan looks like stylized BJJ or Pancrase which intrigues me.
3/21/11 6:50 PM
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Yoseikan is more like a euro version of Ernie Boggs sport jujitsu association. Not bad, but certainly not as widespread or competitive as the arts you mentioned.

But again, I do think the tomiki ryu competitions are interesting and kind of cool. Mind you, I make no claims of understanding the rules or tournament structure, however, there's no denying the coolness of actually seeing someone pull off something like kote-gaeshi against a resisting opponent. ;)
3/22/11 12:31 PM
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I don't know about any distinction that's ever been made. But Tomiki did, if I'm not mistaken, influence the goshin jutsu(self-defense) kata, so I wouldn't say that logic is out of the question.
3/22/11 2:31 PM
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Stronghold
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The short range/long range distinction makes a lot of sense. I can see the logic there.

If you threw in some wrestling takedowns and leg locks, you'd have a pretty replete standing grappling arsenel. But, arts that try to do it all never seem to be best at anything. Hapkido should be the best thing around but it never seems to go far in MMA compared to specialists. So, maybe keeping is relatively simple is a great thing.
3/22/11 2:54 PM
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Balance(jack of all trades) > incomplete(best at one range/skill-set).

On the surface neither judo or bjj seem balanced(and in many cases they're not), but when held to their true standards and ideals, they are re: old school Gracie combatives and judo dojos still teaching/practicing kata and the self-defense techniques.

Moreover, you can probably say with confidence that something like combat sambo is arguably one of, if not the most (functionally) complete martial arts.
3/22/11 7:21 PM
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Stronghold
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It also REALLY matters how the art is practiced. Sambo, BJJ, kickboxing, maui Thai, judo, and a few others all have a high hard ass quotient. I've not seen that with too many martial arts. The aikidoka and jeet kune do guys I've known were not tough guys at all and never seemed to be injured from training (and shit I was and still am ALL of the time it seems like). That might mean something!
3/22/11 7:26 PM
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The problem(as I see it) with arts like JKD is not so much the lack of hard asses, but rather the hodgepodge of skills and them not placing a premium on sparring.

I forget where I read it, but I saw something that basically said few people at the Inosanto academy do anykind of sparring(other than the bjj/shootwrestling people). That speaks volumes, imo. I mean, you don't have to kill yourself or others in training to develop functional skills, but to never(or hardly ever) spar at all? No wonder Erik Paulson is among the only JKD people to ever make a mark in combat sports/mma.

Now contrast that with combat sambo and you see the difference.
3/22/11 11:04 PM
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Stronghold
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Interesting. I know you guys rail against TKD, most of which is fair, but I've been to schools in South Dallas that were shockingly rough. Also, most of those guys boxed. About all they did was line drills (which build great speed) and spar. I'd put those guys up against about anyone mostly because they train the way they fight (and a lot of them do fight). Style is NOT the whole equation.

Roy Harris was/is a big proponent of getting out on the mat and putting 'it' to the test. He did JKD and BJJ so I wish he'd chime in here.
3/24/11 5:03 PM
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Yoshida4Life - 

The Inosanto academy does not place a premium on sparring in its public classes; probably, that is because they think it drives away students. In fact, there is a saying of Bruce Lee to the effect that students keep up with training until you introduce them to hard sparring, and then they just leave.

I have a DVD of Inosanto from 1993 in which he goes through a bunch of stick drills, and then says "After we see you have enough co-ordination to do these drills, we put some armor on you and have you spar."

Sparring is a part of the training, but it *seems* to be introduced on a case by case basis with individual students who are believed to be ready for it. But the classes do not have a regular sparring time (unlike, say Judo or BJJ classes).

I can understand people not wanting to get cracked with a stick Dog Brothers style on a regular basis from day one. But given the fact that even point-fighting faggotry exists, how can JKDers have any faith in what they do when they don't(or very rarely) spar? Especially when we're talking about sub-styles like muay thai and savate. Sparringis a major component of both styles, and with savate in particular, you've got several levels of sparring/comptetition for people to choose from based on their skill and comfort. Yet JKDers as a habit don't take advantage of it? Strange.
3/24/11 5:25 PM
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Stronghold - Interesting. I know you guys rail against TKD, most of which is fair, but I've been to schools in South Dallas that were shockingly rough. Also, most of those guys boxed. About all they did was line drills (which build great speed) and spar. I'd put those guys up against about anyone mostly because they train the way they fight (and a lot of them do fight). Style is NOT the whole equation.

Maybe I'm confusing it with tang soo do, but isn't TKD essentially a derivative of shotokan karate? I remember reading a TKD book back in the day and I could swear it said "korean karate" somewhere in the title. In any event, I ask because it seemed a lot more balanced than what we're familiar with today. I mean, there were still all of the stances, kata, and chambered punches that most of us feel are nonsense, but other than that it was just the basic fundamentals with no flash. That being the case, I could see how an old school TKDer might just surprise you re: hardline training and skill-sets.

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