UnderGround Forums
 

TMA UnderGround >> What are your views on Aikido?


3/24/11 7:19 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 66796
Old school TKD is more like old school karate; both of which have locks and throws. It's actually more like hardcore hapkido where kicks are used to set up locks, sweeps, and joint breaks. In a sense, it is primative but effective. But, only a few schools really taught that way; the sporting aspects of it took over in the late 50s when a national MA council was formed in Korea and they decided on forms, rules, etc. They wanted their own national sport like judo was to Japan. Anyway, that's what some old Koreans told me. So, hapkido went its way and tkd went its way. Most old Korean grandmasters know both plus a lot of judo. They don't teach it like that in the US, the reasons for that are unclear. You hear so much bullshit the truth gets hidden. Figure, they don't respect Americans to uphold the family tradtions like they did.
3/26/11 9:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 66835
It's not that straightforward, sadly. There are several schools of TKD. WTF is Taekyon in roots (more or less) but the other 8 or so other main schools had other lineages. But, as a country that had recently gotten its freedom back after a LONG occupation, the Koreans worked together okay for a few years.

But, I don't think I would really count hapkido as aikido... it follows a different philosophy. It seems less about defeating an opponent's mind and more about boot-to-the-head-and-snap-their-wrists.
3/27/11 1:10 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 4078
I don't know exactly where hapkido fits into things, but I'm pretty sure TKD in all its forms isn't the 'native' martial art TKDers claim it to be. The Japanese occupation was successful in forcing assimilation, therefore the Koreans lost a fair bit of their cultural identity, and as a result their martial arts bare the influence of Japanese martial arts like karate, judo, and aikido. The book I read back in the day speaks to this not only in its title, but in the techniques and 'look' of the art as well. If there were no text or identifying marks(flags and such) in the photos, I would've thought(and did) I was looking at a book on shotokan karate because it was that similar.

Nevertheless, you bastards got me go out and add to my library! lol Found nice copies for next to nothing of the dynamic sphere and Richard Chun's 500+ page manifesto of taekwondo. Can't wait to dig in.
3/27/11 1:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 66870
Already In Use - from what I read on wiki, hapkido was korean for aikido. The Koreans added striking from TKD in with hapkido/aikido.


Supposably hapkido's inventor trained under Ueshiba for a long time then, on his way back home, lost all of his credentials... and the Japanese don't have records of him being in Japan all of that time.

Anyway, not that it matters what wikipedia says, its history is uncertain. This IN NO WAY detracts from it being a legitimate MA. Who cares where it came from as long as it is effective? Japanese historians might care but that's about it.

Besides, there is a lot in hapkido about nerve strikes and pressure points that are not in Ueshiba aikido.
3/27/11 4:16 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 66875
The Overlook Martial Arts encyclopedia written about 1985 or so.
3/27/11 6:28 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 66881
Yeah, okay it wasn't Ueshiba... my bad. Same concept though, where the guy trained is the subject of protracted discussion and lost to time no doubt.
3/27/11 7:26 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Edited: 03/29/11 10:21 PM
Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 66885
Some of the harsher hapkidos look something like Ed Parker's system; sort of like one-steps against certain attacks that all end with a lock and then a knee or foot to the head, throat, or a joint break. For self defense against a non-UFC fighter or non-Pancrase expert, it looks pretty effective imho. But, the guys I've talked to at TKD tournaments tended to be total mooks. They practice TKD with a few locks and throws... sure, it is a step up from just kicking but if you want to learn a MMA, you learn Pancrase or submission fighting.
4/1/11 11:36 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
The Gimp
5 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 10/3/04
Posts: 3387
Most aikido practitioners have zero experience with aliveness.

I practiced BJJ for about 5 years, and I'm about to attempt to restart aikido (if my back injury permits).

I anticipate a totally different experience now that I have trained against fully resisting opponents.

For example, I doubt I'll have any issues with switching to a different technique if the first one doesn't work. (And I can't wait to rip an armdrag followed by iriminage, or an underhook and pike into kaiten nage).

I will post about my experiences here. Wish me luck!
4/2/11 12:22 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 67070
Exactly; the San Soo guys I've worked with were all pretty good but they also did a lot of boxing and some submission wrestling. The master told me, "I want to give myself a chance to survive whatever is coming at me so I have a chance to do my thing".

So, aikido should be added to other systems I think... that's how it was invented. Ueshiba didn't start with aiki stuff, he did wrestling, karate, judo, etc first!! Aikido is not for the novice, imo.
4/2/11 3:00 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 4112
Stronghold - Ueshiba didn't start with aiki stuff, he did wrestling, karate, judo, etc first!! Aikido is not for the novice, imo.

Source?

To my knowledge sumo was a fairly common activity for boys in those days, but I've never heard the judo and karate claims before, at least not that they predated his foray(s) into classical jujutsu/aiki styles. A quick (wiki) search seems to suggest he only practiced judo for about a year, nearly 10yrs after he began tenshin-shinyo ryu, a very aiki-like ryuha.

Also, I don't really agree with the "aikido is not for the novice" idea, as if it's some kind of higher, graduate-level type style. To me, the basis of aiki arts are the same as jujutsu/judo, which is gentleness, so they can be practiced(and applied) by anyone from day one. However, the problem people run into, and therefore the reason why people adopt that sort of opinion, is due to the training methodologies that makes aiki arts inheretly non-functional styles.

Nevertheless, I'm very much enjoying both books I bought. Dynamic sphere is DEEP. And coincidentally, in reading the tkd book there seems to be a peculiar number of grappling/groundfighting "self-defense" techniques, especially those intended for use by women. Borrowing from yudo(judo) or hapkido, perhaps? Kinda odd that a hard style striking art would veer towards grappling for self-defense, but as I said before re: shotokan, it's actually refreshing to see a lack of bullshit(flashy, non-functional, etc) and pretense in the techniques that is so common in TMA mcdojos today.
4/3/11 10:34 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 67125
Most TMA have self defense techniques you do not spar with. That isn't new but I ALWAYS asked where the techniques evolved from...
4/4/11 8:06 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
GaydarBlane
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 8/13/03
Posts: 12785
"Also, I don't really agree with the "aikido is not for the novice" idea, as if it's some kind of higher, graduate-level type style."

That's not what I think of when I hear it (and agree with it). It's because it essentially a wrist locking/defensive art based off a guy grabbing your wrist or shirt. That type of thing won't always be open in a fight. However say if you're also an experience Judo guy and you tie up with somebody, the opportunity may be there for it.

I like Aikido, but I don't think it's practical at all as a sole art in somebody's repertoire.

BTW, read Dynamic Sphere and trained with Mitsunari Kinai before he passed.
4/4/11 1:13 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cfadeftac
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 22
I was always taught that wrist grab defenses were very important in the old Samurai arts because if your in close with someone and he has a sword or knife you are probably going to grab his wrist to keep him from drawing the weapon. So if a guy grabs your wrist and you can unbalance him with a quick lock you have time to draw and finish him.
4/4/11 6:33 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Missing Glove Tape
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/12/10
Posts: 4124
GaydarBlane - "Also, I don't really agree with the "aikido is not for the novice" idea, as if it's some kind of higher, graduate-level type style."

That's not what I think of when I hear it (and agree with it). It's because it essentially a wrist locking/defensive art based off a guy grabbing your wrist or shirt. That type of thing won't always be open in a fight. However say if you're also an experience Judo guy and you tie up with somebody, the opportunity may be there for it.

I like Aikido, but I don't think it's practical at all as a sole art in somebody's repertoire.

I don't think it is either, at least not in the context of how aikido is generally practiced. But if you look at tomiki ryu and its competitons, as well as police arresting techniques still influenced by aikido, you see 'aliveness' and judo/jujitsu-esque styles that make wristlocks(and subsequent takedowns/throws) functional. Now, neither are going to turn someone into the next UFC contender, but to say there's no practicality in it whatsover is nonsense. It's just a classic case of non-functional training methods(ie: the compliant, no-contact atmosphere and silly multiple attacker 'randori').

Think about it. What's the difference between the snap kick you see millions of karate/taekwondo people doing around the world and the one that Anderson Silva use to knockout Vitor Belfort? It's certainly not the technique itself, since they're fundamentally identical. So it has to be the training methods. And in Silva's case, apart from having ridiculous physical attributes, he's simply coming from a foundation of functional delivery systems that allows him to adapt it to 'alive' training.


My $.02
4/5/11 3:08 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
cfadeftac
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 23
Another interesting point with locks and weapons: from the perspective of Filipino arts we do not want to lose control of an opponents weapon. Or as an aikijujutsu guy put it once, "We only want the weapon to come out of the bad guys hand if we want it to, we don't want to scramble for it or one of his friends to pick it up."

Here is an event from FMA history, sorry for taking the discussion sideways but every FMA system I have trained in uses locks for disarms:

Carin has had to apply his self-defense skills on numerous occasions in day-to-day life. The following incident was documented on the BBC's "Way of the Warrior" episode on eskrima. While attending a fiesta in the Mabolo district of Cebu, Carin noticed that a friend was being overrun by four men. After noticing one of the men drawing a knife and then preparing to stab his friend from behind, Carin instinctively parried the knife thrust and followed up with a kick to throw the attacker off balance.
Carin's intervention forced the attackers to concentrate their energy on him. The mass attack was fast and furious; subsequently, Carin did not know how many he was facing. Suddenly, Inting was smashed on the skull with a wooden chair, which sent him to the floor. As he lay on the ground bleeding profusely, one of the attackers sat on top of him and delivered finishing knife thrusts. Carin was stabbed twice in the abdomen and received two extremely deep wounds. He finally disarmed his assailant and countered with a fatal thrust into the armpit of his attacker.

At this point the police arrived. After turning over his knife to the lawmen, Carin collapsed and lost consciousness. One of the attackers lay dead and two others were seriously injured. Carin was presumed dead and together with the other casualties was taken to the funeral parlor. Because of sheer luck or perhaps fate, the late grandmaster Eulogio "Yoling" Canete passed by the funeral parlor and was informed that Carin was one of the casualties. Canete realized that Carin still had signs of life and immediately rushed him to the hospital. It was later learned that the assailants numbered seven — four brothers and three companions!
8/16/11 10:31 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FatBuddha
7 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 8162
wow, I completely forgot about the thread I started 5 years ago lol - can't believe it's still up. Have to read through it now and see if I can find some answers!
8/23/11 10:41 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Outkaster
40 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 1341
Reading this thread reminded me of this when I posted it on another thread.

I came up in the late 1970’s when MA schools and the whole business of Dojo/Dojangs was not that old in most East Coast states. Now MMA gyms are all over the place. You would see Karate, TKD, Kung-Fu Schools, and some Judo Dojos but that was about it. Originally there were a bunch of bad ass Koreans that I trained with. They came to this city in the early 1970’s and TKD was all they knew. Some went to Upstate New York, Pittsburg PA, and Toronto CA. They are on the original cover of Taekwondo-Do: The Condensed Encyclopedia when it first printed. These guys were not like the WTF watered down sport you see. These guys used their hands which was rare because they had to compete with the Karate schools in the region. There was an adjustment made. We did not question them or their teaching methods about anything at the time because we were told or led to believe that what you did was enough. The schools were small and not places where you could “get a black belt in a year” The instructors did not know a lot about practical fighting themselves so people, including me, lost faith in a lot of things. It was not their fault because they probably never questioned their instructors either or cross trained. It was a practice that was looked down upon I walked away from it in 2000 not knowing that there was a whole other world of martial art possibilities out there.

In the past people stayed within the framework of their style because that is what everyone did. Some people did venture out to see what other schools did but there was rivalry and “our school is better than your school” stuff going on. It was more traditional and the respect was there that is not present in today’s MMA crew. You never really saw cross training or guys swearing on the training room floor. Now you walk into a lot of MMA gyms and you it’s no different than being at a health club. It’s a hard thing to adjust to and I think now in my mid forties I would be better off not having a past and being just a beginner.

MMA, and BBJ was not around and even thought of really in the old days. People were studying for the arts sake and generally were happy with everything because they did not know anything else. It was a lot of stand up arts that lacked ground work or ne-waza type training. When I started training the Kung Fu craze was dying out in the late ‘70’s. Bruce Lee had passed so there was not really anyone martial arts community could get behind other than maybe Chuck Norris but he was more of a figure for the 80’s. Then the Ninja boom came in the 1980’s, probably about 1981. Most of us knew what happened then. Marketing got big in the 1980’s because people were selling their schools as “black belt schools” and a lot of ridiculous marketing was used to get people in the door. They used TV shows aimed at kids like the power rangers and teenage mutant ninja turtle for recruitment. Point fighting became big and Steve Hayes continued to make money off the Ninja craze and again no one questioned anything.


I know because I was there and lived through all these changes. Groundwork and grappling were not heard of because it was just not in anyone’s system so martial arts schools are now trying to play catch up. The martial arts were evolving but a lot of people were not paying attention or evolving with them. With the UFC, it changed things for a lot of people, and now like other things people decided they can, or are able to make money off of it. When the pre- MMA came around in 1993 was the year I remember the martial arts community got turned on its head. What grappling did do was give people a kick in the ass and showed them the holes in their system. I found out before that in 1991 after being stabbed 8 times breaking up a fight. So my black belt did not really prepare me for that, it was a hard pill to swallow at 23 years old. As I said a lot of us thought we were tough enough.
Now in my forties it is a different game and some of the Martial Arts are shells of what they once were. Go to a lot of schools and you will see a lot of lazy kids and instructors out of shape convincing themselves that their art is superior. That is why they are easy to market to Americans, because of the colored belt systems and playful atmosphere. That environment gives people a reason to train. It’s not true in all cases Some of us felt like we wasted a lot of time studying the art for the arts sake and not worrying about actually fighting. I do believe that Thai boxing and BBJ have their place but are not the end all either especially with kids. MMA is leveling off and probably will not be as popular as it was from 2003-2008. MMA now stands as its own marital art and has become a spectator sport but something is missing and that is respect. I guess if you come up on the traditional side you kind of have that mindset. TKD can be incorporated into MMA but it takes a long time to learn the kicks. I am sure it would work it is just the integration of some techniques.

8/25/11 6:31 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
m.g
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 7023
Check this video:

http://youtu.be/NinO0vGum38
9/4/11 12:25 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TerreM
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/24/06
Posts: 76
Pson -
Stronghold - Ueshiba learned karate, JJ, fencing, wrestling, some kung fu, etc. But, try being a high up at Hombu and adding your own stuff. The inventor of Yoseikan style says he was kicked out for doing that.


He never said that at all. Ueshiba handed out two honor titles to teach whatever style of Aikido and the one was to Minoru Mochizuki. He was not kicked out for this, he broke off to start his own school with Ueshiba blessings.

Pson is correct. Mochizuke was way ahead of his time. Too bad his art is almost unheard of in the US. There were some good Yoseikan in Tuscaloosa Alabama. I think still some out of Baylor in Tx?
9/4/11 12:37 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
TerreM
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 4/24/06
Posts: 77
shen - Tonight I just went to watch a Yoseikan Aikido class (often morphed into Yoseikan Budo -a sport approach-- in other parts of the world).

This is the same style mentioned earlier in this thread.


It was intersting.

Just some thoughts...

Yoseikan is a style founded in 1931 by one of Kano's high ranking students, Minoru Mochizuki. It's a combo of early Aikido (actually Aikijujutsu), Judo, Shotokan & some Japanese weapon tradition -I think Katori Shinto Ryu.

At the class, during their "free practice" they retracted their punches, so it was a lot more realistic than most aikido. BUT, it also really showed just how ineffective the Aikido techniques themselves are against even slow telegraphed punches; the Black Belts couldn't really pull off the Aikido when they did their "freestyle" portion of class.

Typically, after a failed Aikido technique, they would clinch & throw with a basic Judo throw. On the ground their grappling was basic Judo Newaza / BJJ. It wasn't 100% randori, but more "Tori" & "Uke" with Uke resisting.

Notably, their Judo and newaza was more successful than their Aiki, in these sessions. Which makes sense because newaza & Judo are designed and evolved to "work" against resistance.

On the one hand, I was impressed by how much grappling the sensei allowed in class --he was NOT your typical grappling phobic Aikdo Sensei.

On the other hand, for the "100th time" It was shown to me just how fundamentally unworkable most Aikido is under pressure, even mild pressure. Not impossible to use, but it is the art for idealists in more ways than one. To work Aikido requires cooperation.

At the end of class, though the teacher did caution he wanted to see more Aikido, not just grappling in their free-practice. The problem is people will always gravitate to Judo & Grappling over Aikido, given an option, because they are simply more "high percentage"; Catching a punch out of the air and applying a "Kote Gaeshi" is borderline impossible, while throwing someone with a sloppy Headlock Hip throw or laying on them and cranking an "Ude Garami" (Americana) is well within reach of most people.

The teacher, BTW is the Top Yoseikan teacher in North America who trained in Japan as a live-in student for 7 years directly with the founder of Yoseikan . He is also a BB in Judo.

So in theory it's an interesting art. I was most disappointed by their Aikido. Sloppy Judo is understandable and their grappling was pretty OK, I'd say solid "BJJ mid-white belt" level to MAYBE Blue Belt for one guy who looked like he may study BJJ. But the Aiki-techniques themselves... just weren't happening. But I guess that is just the truth of Aikido in practice; it's fairly unworkable even for most Aikido Black Belts.

Apparently what the founder of Yoseikan's son did was take out the "unworkable" stuff and turn it into sort of a budo-based "MMA lite" type of style. It's quite popular in France. (You can find plenty of Yoseikan Budo sparring clips on Youtube if you want to see the more modern version of the art).

This teacher I went to was not of that lineage, but followed the original teachings of the father.

FWIW, the teacher and students were very friendly in the "typical" Aikido manner.


These observations ring true to me. I left Judo to learn from a Yoseikan renegade group in which we had several law enforcement and a few military guys. Our randori always started out with the Aiki stuff but always "degenerated" into grappling ground game. It was a blast! Like you, I found that much of the AIKI stuff was low percentage (but did work occasionally surprise! or exhaustion... if we did iron man style randori where one guy stays in and gets worked by the whole class). Funtimes with out all the mystical pretentious bulls#@ you get at most Aiki places.
9/16/11 8:21 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
FJJ828
Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 3451
 Not sure if anyone mentioned this but as just about everyone in Japan is exposed to Judo when they are growing up, it stands to reason that when police cadets would go through training in Japan that they would learn arrest techniques from Aikido. #1 because it is a National style and #2 because the most obvious techniques are apprehension oriented. 

There are certainly Aikidoka who can fight, but Aikido is not about fighting and if they can fight, they generally didn't learn it from Aikido. Aikido can be hard on the body and done aggressively, can be exhausting like any other activity but it ain't fightin'.
4/7/13 8:57 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
Stronghold
79 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 74379
Yoseinkan is badass but rare. Austin used to have a club but that's about it.
4/26/13 10:19 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
yusul
109 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 15882
aikido and hapkido founders learned from daito ryu style leader takeda. however, ueshiba wanted to evolve aikido into his personal philosophy, while choi, the founder of hapkido, preserved the military efficient mentality of the founder.

unlike ueshiba, who was an elegant thinker, choi was a simple but intuitive man. he really just kept to the essentials instead of turning it into a spiritual vessel for growth.

also, it should be noted that besides the mentality, hapkido followed more the korean cultural ideas for movement and fighting, rather than the japanese.

unfortunately, aikido has done a better job of quality control than hapkido, and there are few comprehensive schools left that follow the original methods of hapkido. now, you have a mismash: taekwondo teachers learning a few wristlocks calling it 'hapkido', some people who learned sections, who got their blackbelts too fast, different federations created with different standards etc.

for authentic instruction, i definitely would avoid any school where the instructor teaches both tkd and hkd.

on another note: one of the former heads of the korea hapkido federation liked the ideas and the art of aikido, and integrated the concepts into his hapkido. the art is called hankido and is very smooth.

7/23/13 9:54 AM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
buddie
230 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 6918
sub for knowledge
7/24/13 4:44 PM
Ignore | Quote | Vote Down | Vote Up
m.g
34 The total sum of your votes up and votes down Send Private Message Add Comment To Profile

Member Since: 1/1/01
Posts: 7470
Yusul,

Excellent post!

Reply Post

You must log in to post a reply. Click here to login.