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SBGI >> Is Silat Alive?


6/11/09 6:35 PM
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laqueus
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What I'm getting at is someone who clearly knows what they're about has a difference of opinion with you on this, and you're rather stubbornly sticking to your point of view without re-evaluating it more closely.
6/11/09 6:54 PM
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Matt Thornton
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Edited: 06/12/09 3:56 AM
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I have been coaching athletes for 20 years. My point of view has been well thought out for years.

I personally know of a very famous/good UK football/soccer player that always plays with a dried up fish head in his pocket. True story. Therefore, should the coach have the players all keep fish heads on them while they play?

Granted that is an extreme example, but the point is clear. The appeal to authority is never a rational substitute for your own critical thinking ability. This is true whether it's a star athlete or the pope.

When it comes to things like the no touch knockout video on this thread, wing chun, or shaolin monks who posses super powers, I don't believe anyone needs anyone else to tell them it's nonsense. It is pretty transparent. But then again, people will believe all sorts of crazy things if the motive matches. Again see Scientology as an example, and btw Tom Cruise swears by it. And he is clearly a huge success. 
6/12/09 1:32 AM
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laqueus
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It's funny how much you have in common with a lot of TMAists the way you say that.
6/12/09 2:53 AM
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Matt Thornton
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Edited: 06/12/09 5:00 AM
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 Urging others to think critically about all things, but most especially absurd superstitious things is hardly TMA.

I have gone into great detail in explaining the why's and how's of Alive training. You can check out that info at length at the Aliveness FAQ on our website  www.straightblastgym.com  if you have a valid argument then you will want to try making it without falling back on appeals to authority, or ad hominem attacks (such as above). Otherwise you demonstrate your own lack of an argument. 

www.straightblastgym.com 
2/20/12 2:29 PM
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Siciliano
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rASNLlgxFY

Alive enough?
2/20/12 4:13 PM
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Matt Thornton
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Absurd.
2/22/12 5:45 PM
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Siciliano
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No offense Matt, but it seems like you don't understand the realities of bladed weaponry. Many BJJ Blackbelts have travelled to train with us.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, one of your guys travelled to Manila from Korea to train with us. He's a BJJ black belt.
2/23/12 2:58 PM
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Matt Thornton
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Rickson Gracie could train with you, that doesn't by proxy validate the method. Training patty-cake flow drills with two knives versus two knives is no more functional than doing so with empty hand drills; the only difference is that it would be far more insane if anyone tried it in reality.
2/23/12 8:42 PM
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Siciliano
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctGuUdYTCmk&feature=player_embedded

Matt, do you understand what's going on in this clip?
2/23/12 10:36 PM
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Siciliano
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Edited: 02/23/12 10:36 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-d4vtVm-ZE&feature=player_detailpage>
2/24/12 6:34 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Guys, Matt is right. Almost NOBODY really knows the delivery system to training to fight with knives. And there are even some 'aliveness adepts' and some DogBrothers who don't know this system.

It's quite specific and layered and it gives you the same feeling of effectiveness that training in BJJ and wrestling and boxing and (now) judo gives you. You don't look to some 'authority' or BB master and say 'have you ever been in a fight? Is Karate (or other esoteric) effective.

I'll tell you the absolute truth. Esoterics have some 'effective aspects', but only layered on top of an 'aliveness' base art.

I can teach an MMA fighter or a BJJ guy 'street combat' effectivenss and how to train that in a week. But it would take me forever to teach a TMA guy how to actually fight using aliveness. They always want to go back to their 'belt wearing' and ego-tripping and they roll once and get their ego crushed by a bluebelt girl and never come back.


2/24/12 6:57 AM
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WidespreadPanic
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Edited: 02/24/12 7:02 AM
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This is an interesting subject because it exposes so much about the martial arts.

Why people get confused and why some think (are tricked, actually by not seeing the reality) esoteric arts are effective are based on a few things.

1. Lots of stuff done at 80% speed or even a bit higher, with a 'student' of that system seem to be very effective. But it breaks down at 100% and when used against a non-student. Put a Chinese wrestler against any judo guy or wrestler and they get schooled badly. They are using TMA methods at 80%.
2. The TMA have been diluted down over the years by secrecy. The original guys who did stuff like Ueichi-Ryu might have been effective but that was because they had a different training base they kept secret to stay the 'Master' or they kept other things from the students.
3. A lot of guys would be great fighters even if they just trained in ballroom dancing or doing the drums or came from a Rugby or Soccer background. These guys are just naturally tough, have natural attributes which 'on the street' allow them through ruthlessness or just attributes being really high to beat the majority of normal people. They do not do well in MMA. Brock Lesnar is one. He has major holes in his game and it is brought out in the UFC fights. Can his attribute level and size allow him to beat a Frank Mir type? Yes. But that doesn't make what Brock has more effective than BJJ/MMA.

You have to look at MA from the 'performance-based training' aspect and you have to look at what is effective used by the weakest person that might use them.

A 5'8 female, 150lbs, trained well in base (running), BJJ, and Wrestling (Takedowns), and some Crazy Monkey boxing, is going to be able to be a lot of men who are not MA, who are just 'normally tough' but unskilled. But take that same female and teach her a bunch of knife-fighting stuff and Silat and esoterics in a non-alive manner and she will be badly deluded in her own abilities, and will likely get killed by trying to contend.

So look at what is really effective about the art - look at the specific practitioner's background and attributes and toughness and then analyze why they seem effective. There are probably Sliat guys with a good boxing background who train differently that other Silat guys. There are probably native Silat guys who work in the fields with knives everyday or who are Grocery butchers in their job. They know how to use a knife with such attributes that they are going to look 'scary'. But give them a wooden knife and put them against a judo guy or bjj guy with some exposure to knifes and they'll get killed.

There are people who have disarmed knife guys, but it was a fluke. Beware of generalizing from 'fluke' events.

Also, there are TMA guys who had an alive type training background, but again with 'secrecy' and jealousy didn't pass that along to their students. I think this occured in WC and Aikido. Both the top guys had a secret 'aliveness' art base, but kept this hidden from students. Thus no 'normally tough' WC guy is going to be able to used it to beat an MMA guy or a judo/bjj/boxer/wrestler type.

 
2/24/12 10:45 AM
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Siciliano
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"Almost NOBODY really knows the delivery system to training to fight with knives. "

I beg to disagree. Master swordsmen like Musashi (Samurais), Conquistadores (European saber fighters), Tatang Ilustrisimo etc. are very adept with knives.

2/24/12 10:46 AM
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Siciliano
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev-_k_hH1z4
2/24/12 11:31 AM
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Adam Singer
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Samurais and Conquistadors.LOL That's your counter argument.
2/24/12 11:55 AM
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Siciliano
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Edited: 02/24/12 11:56 AM
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Uhm yes. Check out this clip. Now tell me, will you win a sword or knife fight against this guy? he was in his 80s at this time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biXpNl9VJcQ
2/24/12 12:49 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Siciliano - "Almost NOBODY really knows the delivery system to training to fight with knives. "

I beg to disagree. Master swordsmen like Musashi (Samurais), Conquistadores (European saber fighters), Tatang Ilustrisimo etc. are very adept with knives.

You're not listening to me. I'm not talking about:

1. Lost skills (European, Italian, Spanish rapier fencing, Chinese samurai swordsmen who have been in actual duels.).
2. Tatang Ilustrisimo, Sonny Umpad (the late FMA master), who were PRODIGIES.

I'm talking about the delivery system which was how to train them so a normal person could acquire serious alive skills. YES give a woman a big knife and maybe she now has TMA black belt level contention abilities. But that's another matter.

You tell me. What is the training regime, skill acquisition methodology, ranging, speed and dueling methodologies that are needed to train a person to fight with a knife. I don't mean getting chalked 8" blades and running out there and swinging them at each other. THAT is not it. It's got two glaring flaws and if I haven't told you about these in a PM, there is nobody on this board (who hasn't heard it from them through me) can say what they are. YET they are very, very simple things, almost forehead-slappingly so.

Yet they talk like they do know and they are all uppity and arrogant about it. THAT's the problem. There is nobody like a 'knife master'/dog brother/RBSD guy who thinks they know the -training methodology- (outside of being a natural prodigy), that can tell YOU a normal person what to do. But their cup is the fullest of the full. They get MAD and delete messages where you spell out with bullet points how what they are doing is wrong. And OH SO wrong.

But, if you think you know PM me.

 
2/24/12 12:53 PM
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Siciliano
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Hi WP,

Yes I do agree with you. Those were lost arts and they were never able to teach it right to the next generation. Were you able to view the clips I posted?
2/24/12 12:53 PM
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Siciliano
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Wait, did you PM me? How do you check PMs here?
2/24/12 12:54 PM
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WidespreadPanic
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Siciliano - Uhm yes. Check out this clip. Now tell me, will you win a sword or knife fight against this guy? he was in his 80s at this time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biXpNl9VJcQ

 Again. Not listening to what I'm saying. THere is no discussion of methology. And Christopher Ricketts (yes I know him) and his master are just doing offensive-defense. 'Topher' is not attacking just stepping backwards and not attacking. So it's a 'demo'.

I'm not saying THEY have no skills. I'm saying that clip is not a 'fight', it's not a description of training method.

If I took a clip of two top TKD masters throwing kicks at beginners, of Bill Wallace in his heyday, you'd 'think' they were great fighters. But they are great at point sparring and admit it.

So again. It's training method and nobody here knows it or they'd be all over this thread disputing me with actual lists of things and methods and ways and means. They're not.

PM me if you like and I'll talk about one of them or so.

2/24/12 1:01 PM
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Siciliano
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You're telling me that clip isn't sparring? Sorry. So hard to comprehend over the internet. Offensive-defensive???

2/24/12 1:04 PM
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Siciliano
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Edited: 02/24/12 1:26 PM
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Topher's trying to attack. You know him right? I've sparred with him and his son. he was just totally outclassed by Tatang in this clip.
2/24/12 2:07 PM
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Siciliano
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Here are some sword principles:
1. For the cutting motions (taga) and some parries, seems like the fulcrum (or pivot point) of the blade is always at the center.

2. For thruststhe fulcrum is at the tip.

3. Wide movements are a definite taboo for sword fighting. Elbows must be kept in close. Just like boxing.

4. The use of the "alive hand" is basically just an insert to offset your opponents centerline and put you in prime position to finish him off.

5. Protecting your weapon hand is a must. This is done by proper body alignment and posture.

6. The "Retirada" and "Elastico" Footwork buys you time to deliver a counter-attack with one count.

7. There is seldom any blade to blade contact in this system. Parries are done with either the flat or back side of the blade.

8. Counters are 1-count. The parry (defense) and counterstrike (offense) utilizes a single beat.

9. Using your peripheral vision cuts down on reaction time.
2/24/12 2:22 PM
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Siciliano
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WP,

Do you understand this?

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=58633468766
3/9/12 3:21 PM
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Boyscout
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Siciliano - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rASNLlgxFY

Alive enough?


Siciliano,

I have a question if this is double blade vs double blade,why are the guys in the video standing in mid range all the time?

Why are they not out of range, is it a forced range drill?

Regards

Richard

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