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Jen >> Jen take on "running escape"


11/17/06 2:37 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 17-Nov-06
Member Since: 05/27/2003
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What's your take on this "running escape" of Saulo Riberio everyone is talking about? Is it really new, or is it really old with a new name?
11/17/06 3:02 AM
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Bolo
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Edited: 17-Nov-06
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I haven't seen the entire video, but the one technique from that single video clip looks like the pin escape that Roy Harris showed on his video a while back.
11/18/06 1:04 AM
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Bolo
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Edited: 18-Nov-06
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http://www.harris-international.com/html/popup14.html
11/19/06 5:56 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 19-Nov-06
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I think it is just a "variation" or different "application" of an old technique. Just because it is slight different then Roy's version doesn't make it "new". Furthermore if it is just a variation or different application of an old technique then it really is nothing more than an "option" a person can do when he or she does the technique. In wrestling, which incidently is where I think this technique derived from, they teach you to "chain" together or "connect" techniques together including "options" or the different things you could do with a single technique. So whether you "turn out" like in Roy's version or "turn in" like in Saulo's version in wrestling you would be told to drill and practice both as one dynamic movement teaching the body to "automatic" switch to the other if one, for what ever reason, fails.
11/19/06 7:31 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 19-Nov-06
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Wrestling? In all my years in BJJ, I have rolled with many wrestlers and I have not yet met one who escaped pins in any technical manner. The only thing I have every felt any wrestler do is to bridge and turn to their stomach as hard as they possibly can.
11/19/06 7:44 PM
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rene.r
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Edited: 04-Jan-07 02:14 PM
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http://www.harris-international.com/html/popup14.html
11/19/06 9:38 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 19-Nov-06
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Bolo, The running escape is still derived from a wrestling move believe it or not. The move, of course, has been modified to fit Bjj just lke the granby roll has been modified to fit Bjj. The circumstances of how the technique is used in Bjj and in wrestling differ BUT the MOVEMENT and PRINCIPLE behind the movement is EXACTLY the same. This is why I say running escape is nothing more than a common wrestling escape ADAPTED for Bjj. Most of a wrestling escapes are designed or meant for when a person is on their back because this is a common position wrestlers have to escape from. Now in wrestling there is a starting position called the referees position where one person is down on their hands and knees and the other person is over the down person's back slight to their side with one knee up and one knee down one hand is around his waist and the other securing his elbow. From this position the top person will usually slam the bottom person down so that he is on his side much like how Saulo was in his video clip. In fact that is the position most wrestlers will find themselves in at some point in a wrestling match. To prevent the opponent from riding them and to escape a wrestler will do EXACTLY what Saulo did. The move is called a "sitout" or "duckout". The technique is performed EXACTLY like Saulo (and even Roy) showed it. You can either turn out to your knees like Roy or turn in like Saulo. The only difference is the context in which it is used. In Bjj it is seems to be a pure pin escape. In wrestling it is more of pin prevention. Man, I wish I had pictures to show you. I'll do some searching. Anyway the MOVEMENT is EXACTLY the same. The circumstance and context is slightly different but the movement and principle is exactly the same.
11/20/06 3:11 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 20-Nov-06
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Posts: 197
Thanks for your input. I asked Roy Harris about his escape. He said he didn't know what Saulo's running escape was. But he learned his escape from Joe Moreira. To avoid pointless argument, I will concede that the Saulo move is a variation of an old move. But it seems that there is an important new detail in that variation. Roy doesn't put his arm against his ribs, because, he says, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to jump on his back when he does the move. I gather Saulo is not so certain that nobody will be able to jump on his back, which is why he keeps his arm?@where it is. The arm there converts this from an escape into an offensive move. Does that make it a new move? Or a new application for an old move? Gee, imagine giving new names to old moves....that would be a first! "I Respect All Styles"
11/20/06 11:36 AM
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cincibill
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Edited: 20-Nov-06
Member Since: 05/21/2006
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For you weight lifter guys that's whatJoe Weider did was put a name to the different weight lifting concepts and call them his own. BJJ is wide open, put a name to something and put it out there.
1/4/07 2:07 PM
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FlyingSpaghMon
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Edited: 04-Jan-07
Member Since: 12/31/2006
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I fi can add my own input. This movement is NOT one invented by BJJ practitioners, nor is it a new escape. It has simply become popular now amongst BJJ guys. 1) I learned this move in Judo over 13 years ago. 2) There is a BJJ video set, that is about 6 years old, that also has this escape. So even if people want to beleive BJJ 'invented' it, it is not a new technique to BJJ.
1/4/07 3:38 PM
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Bolo
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Edited: 04-Jan-07
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Here's a question... Let's say A is an old technique and B is an old technique. But someone then figures out a way to combine A and B which no one else has done and now there is technique call A+B. Is A+B considered a new technique?
1/4/07 8:22 PM
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FlyingSpaghMon
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Edited: 04-Jan-07
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Bolo, Good question, I think it would be considered at the least a new application of older techniques. However ifno one else had done it then of course it would be a new technique! I mean if one REALLY want to get technical, one could argue that ALL techniques are based off of human bodily movements that has been done before (e.g. bending legs) thus no technique could be called 'new'. I think it boils down to application and end-result.
1/5/07 1:40 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 05-Jan-07
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Old Thing A + Old Thing B = New Thing (A+B)? Can you patent or copyright it? That would give you some idea whether it is new or not, ot at least whether the legal system in the USA thinks it is. All new songs are recombinations of parts of older songs. There are only 12 notes in a chromaic scale (per octave). Many many many different songs actually begin with identical patterns of notes. Usually the duration of one or more of the notes distinguishes the melodies. Sometime it is the harmonization that does it. "It doesn't matter what you call it as long as you can do it." --Judo Gene LeBell BTW Eduardo Telles also shows this escape (or a variation)on his Turtle guard DVD set. He uses it to get to the Turtle pose, while Saulo uses it to overturn the opponent. The movement is the same, but the objective is not the same. I'm not disagreeing with anyone. My personal opinion is that LeBell is correct, unless someomne sues you for violation of their patent/copyright. But I don't think you can claim body movements as intellectual property.
1/5/07 2:22 PM
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Indrek R.
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Edited: 05-Jan-07
Member Since: 07/04/2002
Posts: 1501
Has anyone really seen the whole tape?
1/18/07 4:30 PM
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sayonaisse
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Edited: 18-Jan-07
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I haven't seen the whole tape but I've seen Garcia RNC the crap out of Xande when he tried to do the running escape on him
1/18/07 7:11 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 18-Jan-07
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It's all about timing. I think there is a timing element to many techniques, that is, the technique has to be done at the right time in conjunction with the correct mechanics in order to be done successfully. If the timing element is missng then chances are the technique will fail. I mean the best time to perform at technique is during the "unguarded moment" when the opponent has the smallest opportunity to attack. If the opponent knows what you're trying to do or if you do it to slowly or if you telegraph your intention then the opponent has the advantage. He can simply prepare himself to not only stop you but counter you with a technique of his own.
1/26/07 7:26 PM
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cincibill
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Edited: 26-Jan-07
Member Since: 05/21/2006
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"Let's say A is an old technique and B is an old technique. But someone then figures out a way to combine A and B which no one else has done and now there is technique call A+B. Is A+B considered a new technique?" I don't know, what do you feel are the rules? What can or should a guy do? Always say here is a new one to me, or here is one I haven't seen on any video, or here is something I came up with that I have not seen before?
1/27/07 1:32 PM
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m.g
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Edited: 27-Jan-07 01:34 PM
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"Let's say A is an old technique and B is an old technique. But someone then figures out a way to combine A and B which no one else has done and now there is technique call A+B. Is A+B considered a new technique?" NO! Since Bjj is a dynamic thing where it's techniques, movements etc are "applied" in dynamic situation, A+B is NOT really "new" but a natural application of both A and B. I mean nothing in Bjj is done in a vaccum. All of its techniques, movements etc are meant to be connected to other techniques AND adapted/adjust to fit different situations and scenarios. In fact that's what makes it dynamic the fact the every situation it is used in changes; some times slightly, sometimes dramatically. But these every changing situation forces adaptation, combination and evolution, that's the nature of dynamism. Applying an "old" techniques in a "new" way or combining "two" old techniques and applying them in a "new" way doesn't create something new!
1/29/07 4:51 AM
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keseki
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Edited: 29-Jan-07
Member Since: 05/27/2003
Posts: 207
"It doesn't matter what you call it as long as you can do it." --Judo Gene LeBell

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