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SBGI >> takedowns for street


11/29/06 10:12 AM
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gordy
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Edited: 29-Nov-06
Member Since: 12/22/2005
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Hi, could you tell me what takedowns sbgi use for selfdefence not mma training. Do you use the single and double leg with a penetration step?. If so what do you do about the knee pound on a hard surface such as concrete.Do you just penetrate without going knee over toe or do you guys penetrate a different way. or do you guys just use takedowns from a clinch. Thanks for any answers.
11/29/06 12:01 PM
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Luis Gutierrez
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Edited: 29-Nov-06 12:04 PM
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Hi Gordy, Self-defense can be quite a loaded word/ concept but I will try and respond as best I can from a perspective of alive training and what one discovers there that applies across the board not so much as to what is "correct" or "expected" but knowing what you personally can or can not do. Shorter answer: Throws/ takedowns that directly work off of strikes and staying vertical. Nothing that drops a knee on the floor or anything that diminishes your ability to "sense" what else may be around you. Singles, doubles etc would take the fight to the ground and you with it. Throws from Judo or Greco for example, leave you on your feet for the most part. Longer answer: We coach from a perspective of what is most propable integrated with what is most functional to begin with and this leads to building a level of ability and response-ability that leads directly into handling the unexpected or unknown in a manner that leads to the greatest results in any exchange. What is deemed higher percentage is discovered through training against endless energies and trying out as many options as we can among varying degrees of resistance and pressures. If you have checked out some of the ISR material, you can get a start on some of the thoughts behind what we coach that directly applies to self-defense. Given that as a start, dirty judo or dirty boxing which I often call Jits with Hits or clinch with cloth is what stems from there. That said, I am sure there are many other ways to take a person down and am sure a few people out there can change levels within inches of touching down and make a takedown work on pavement. I am not one of them nore think most people are so don't coach for the elite athlete or gifted person when it comes to one's well being or survival or for long term growth and understanding for that matter. Hope this helps, -Luis
11/29/06 1:16 PM
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gordy
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Edited: 29-Nov-06
Member Since: 12/22/2005
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Thanks for the speedy reply. Yep, your answer helps alot. If you dont mind me asking what are the most common greco and judo takedowns you use and teach?.
11/29/06 2:29 PM
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Luis Gutierrez
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Edited: 29-Nov-06 02:30 PM
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I personally tend to teach in cycles of three for the most part with any technique and play off of engagement, counters to that engagement, and then re-counters to that. So take any takedown and coach it with three options off of the subjects own three possible counters. I feel in this way I work from a dynamic point of practice that can then cycle itself with another cycle of three and so forth as the student progresses with their understanding and ability. One of the basic principles of the ISR when it comes to its live drilling and sparring is to use foot trips and sweeps to create space foremost and leave the actuall trip or takedown as incidental. The very same trips and sweeps lead to throws but we teach all these set ups and throws with striking in mind. So, the very nature of the body (since we don't have tails) is to move the head to balance out any off balancing of the legs or hips. So if the subject is in tight, we use trips, bumps, sweeps and throws to either do just that or create just enough space to then insert strikes be they elbows, chin jabs, punches, knees, etc. Try an out side reap for example and have your partner counter by removing his trapped leg out and back. You will notice his head moves away from his body a bit. Strike there and continue back for that throw or another you have trained off of that. You can either find an intelligent Judo/ greco coach that stresses the "ju" aspect of the sports or look up books/ dvds that cycle their throws and set ups then insert those ideas into resistance at your gym, The commonly held idea that hip throws for example are muscle moves or low percentage for self-defense are not taking into account training specifically to get that throw off of set ups that come from other movements involving strikes or grip and foot work. When it comes to the subject of attached fighting, it only makes sense not to seperate your grips and off balancing from your strikes. Some of this is on here if you look close enough: http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/ISRPM_clipDSL.wmv -Luis
11/29/06 3:24 PM
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gordy
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Edited: 29-Nov-06 03:28 PM
Member Since: 12/22/2005
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Are there any dvd's that teach this. I looked on your site but dvd's were for law inforcement only. Are there any plans in the future to release a dvd set on clinching, striking from the clinch and striking to set up the sweeps,takedowns and creating space. Does the Disc #7 ? Advanced Clinch on the series 3 dvd set that is discussed on the other threat cover this. thanks
11/29/06 3:38 PM
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Luis Gutierrez
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Edited: 29-Nov-06
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The new ISR-PM set teaches aspects used for subject control and it serves as a base for the material shown on that clip. The material will be taught in seminar and course formats next year. I have not made any plans yet to create a DVd set as of yet since we are trying to set up the infrastructure for the ISR material on the existing to handle course demands by security personel. Disc #7 I think has some of this, yes. -Luis
11/29/06 4:02 PM
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gordy
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Edited: 29-Nov-06
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Ok, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.It's appreciated.
11/30/06 11:20 PM
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nowaydo
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Edited: 30-Nov-06
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Luis, Excellent response! It's all in the set-up! The most underrated and under-trained takedown tactic is the set-up. Moving your opponent where you want them to be, moving them in a position where you have an advantegeous angle, and moving them in a position where they are weak. With a good set-up, the takedown is secondary. Good Judokas only have one or two throws that they routinely do, yet their set ups vary. The same goes for good wrestlers. The set ups for free and folkstyle are easier to spot, where greco set ups can be hidden to the uneducated eye. To really polish your set ups, I'd look to high level wrestlers. I got to work with former Olympian Dennis Hall this summer. He pressed the set ups much more than the takedown or throw. He has a great DVD on "Set-ups" which you can get at http://www.calemax.com/dennis_hall.html. Also, Tom Brands is a great one to explore. He is the master! You can get his stuff at www.championshipproductions.com. Most high school wrestlers rely less on set ups and more on physical attributes. At high levels of wrestling and Judo, everyone has the skill and attributes therefore you need good set ups. Believe me when I tell you that skilled set ups make taking down people very easy. Sometimes too easy. As far as the street goes, most likely the set up will happen within the clinch, after the first wild swing or from a grab or shove. I've explore a lot of takedown and throwing arts and the most efficient takedown comes from ISR. (After the set-up) It puts in in a strong and safe place. A very distance second, IMO is the high single "from the clinch". Drive, proper head position and posture is a must. He's on one leg more worried about his balance than striking you. You stay on two solid driving legs. It's also one of the most common takedowns in MMA. However, I don't advice it highly for LEO, due to the possible firearm abduction. Also, there is a threat he may take you down with him. Whatever takedown you choose, the end result leaves you on your feet or over him in a knee on belly or knee on jaw.
12/1/06 1:25 PM
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gordy
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Edited: 01-Dec-06
Member Since: 12/22/2005
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Nowaydo, thanks for the reply. Which of the Tom Brands dvd's at championshipproductions do you recomend that covers what your talking about.
12/1/06 7:24 PM
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nowaydo
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Edited: 01-Dec-06
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Sure! WRD-02469 TOM BRANDS: DOMINANT HAND FIGHT WRD-02287 Tom Brands: "In-Your-Face" Wrestling - Attacking for Success!
12/2/06 12:21 AM
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HEMAN
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Edited: 02-Dec-06
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GORDY... How about the CUNG LE double leg uproot??? Also included is the single leg uproot! Video instructions here: <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/R8J18VREdcY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param></object>
12/2/06 7:24 AM
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gordy
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Edited: 02-Dec-06
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Thanks guys. So why doesn't cung le go knee over toe when penetraing. Is it because his opponent is stationary and therefore he doesn't need to cover that extra distance. nowaydo, have you seen the Championship Access freestyle and greco dvd's.If so what do you think of them and do they cover setups?
12/2/06 7:37 AM
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Mike Sweeney
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Edited: 02-Dec-06 07:38 AM
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Cung Le sure does nail those takedowns in his fights. Good clip. Gordy: IMO a full penetration step is required if the opponent is lower (ie. in a wrestling stance). Because his partner is so upright that really isn't needed.
12/2/06 9:27 AM
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nowaydo
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Edited: 02-Dec-06 09:29 AM
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No I haven't seen them. Mike is right. Your opponent is usually coming towards you, all you have to do is squat. The split squat is all you need. also, as I said the most efficient takedowns are from the clinch. So, you are already there. All you have to do is change levels.
12/3/06 9:33 AM
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HEMAN
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Edited: 03-Dec-06
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"So why doesn't cung le go knee over toe when penetraing. Is it because his opponent is stationary and therefore he doesn't need to cover that extra distance." U are talking about streets right? Well...most people will be throwing punches...as u can imagine...if u are an average striker...u can use a punching combination to either make them stationary or backpeddal. Then u can penetrate for the double.

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