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TMA UnderGround >> chen tai chi


12/16/06 12:00 AM
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yusul
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Edited: 16-Dec-06
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i notice that they are getting a lot of publicity these days in mags, but has anyone ever seen them fight? just curious since they claim combat effectiveness using their forms. or is there any record of them going up against yang style in china?
12/21/06 9:22 AM
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GaydarBlane
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Edited: 21-Dec-06
Member Since: 08/13/2003
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I do Yang style with a sifu who is considered the "real deal". I wouldn't put any of his guys up against a guy who practice a combat sport for equal length of time. There are some interesting concepts in the style though, and I feel this is more a deficiency in the way the train than in tai chi itself.
12/21/06 2:29 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 21-Dec-06
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what city do you practice your style in?
12/21/06 3:25 PM
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GaydarBlane
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Edited: 21-Dec-06
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If I said that, the guy who I train with would be extremely obvious. I don't want to drag his name through the mud. Good guy.
12/21/06 4:14 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 21-Dec-06
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really? anyhow no worries, my original question was regarding chen, not yang.
12/21/06 4:37 PM
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GaydarBlane
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Edited: 21-Dec-06
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Yeah. Pretty hard to be interested in kung fu and not know who he is. Great guy and great teacher. Hell, some would do good against the average type street fighter. Against a trained sport fighter though... no.
1/2/07 10:55 AM
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Dimball
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Edited: 02-Jan-07
Member Since: 10/18/2004
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I don't think it would be worth much on the street in a real fight.
5/17/07 1:52 AM
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WizzleTeats
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Edited: 17-May-07
Member Since: 06/07/2006
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In theory all the major taiji styles are effective. I mean, in essence most of them are basically close quater fighting and wrestling systems. However the lack of realistic training makes it fairly useless. Keep in mind too that 100 years ago the guys learning this stuff would have had a least a passing familiarity with basic kicks, punches, throws, etc. Many would have already learned a more external style like Long Fist. Tim Cartmell is a good example of someone who can make Chen work. He is also a BJJ black belt, fwiw.
5/18/07 10:48 PM
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FlashGordon2002
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Edited: 18-May-07
Member Since: 05/23/2002
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I used to do Chen Taijiquan. There actually WAS sparring in class...it was basically stand-up grappling. Basic rules were, you could grab the upper body and use your legs to sweep and reep the other guy's legs BUT you couldn't grab his lower legs (I think this was enforced tactical doctrine to avoid getting kneed in the head). So there was realistic training...BUT, it was kinda hard to progress as our instructor didn't speak English very well so any coaching (if any) didn't sink in very easily. I thought of the forms as mainly being a form of conditioning; they were brutal on the legs. However, with that being said, I think there are more efficient ways of developing proficiency in stand-up grappling. However, learning the forms properly (by being yelled at by the instructor each time I f'ed up) basically hammered proper basic body mechanics into me which, I think was a good thing.
5/20/07 4:19 AM
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hama1
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Edited: 20-May-07
Member Since: 10/15/2005
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thZrw_h57Q4 I used to study Yang Taichi with this man. He also did Chen style as well as Bagua and Xing Yi. When your skill level was good enough, he would introduce sanshou to his students. He believed sparring is an important part of training in martial arts and would spar with sanshou/sanda guys. I think it's rare to find Taichi instructors who do that. But, if you just want to learn to fight, most CMA aren't the way to go. You'll learn faster going to a boxing gym.
5/20/07 1:52 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 20-May-07
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that clip was interesting. he flowed very well.
5/20/07 2:49 PM
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hama1
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Edited: 20-May-07
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Yeah, he's been doing martial arts for over 20 years with a lot of old school training. I like his philosophy. He told me about the time he got one of his female students to put on the headgear and gloves and go 3 rounds with some sanshou guy. He got her to do that because she has to overcome a fear of fighting. It worked. She was scared at first, but by the end of the match she was getting into it and had fun. For a taichi instructor I think that's extremely uncommon.
8/9/07 3:56 PM
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GaydarBlane
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Edited: 09-Aug-07
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"I used to do Chen Taijiquan. There actually WAS sparring in class...it was basically stand-up grappling. Basic rules were, you could grab the upper body and use your legs to sweep and reep the other guy's legs BUT you couldn't grab his lower legs (I think this was enforced tactical doctrine to avoid getting kneed in the head). So there was realistic training...BUT, it was kinda hard to progress as our instructor didn't speak English very well so any coaching (if any) didn't sink in very easily. I thought of the forms as mainly being a form of conditioning; they were brutal on the legs." This sounds like a type of "push hands" we do. It is basically like tachi waza Judo. Having done Judo, I'll reiterate what I said about the sport fighting. I'm not quite sure why I go along with it, but I hold back a great deal when pushing hands with the more advanced people there or even some classmates. Occasionally I'll really go for and drop somebody easily, but I play it off like it was lucky if they don't use the "too much strength" thing. It's relaxing as hell to do though. At this point in my life, I'm plenty prepared to deal with most normal folk. Seeing as I won't likely be fighting a UFC guy any time soon, stress is more liable to cause me damage. :) BTW, here is a video of "pushing": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_ZtX9wRdA
8/9/07 4:37 PM
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GaydarBlane
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Edited: 09-Aug-07
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ardLHzFqtRA
8/9/07 5:07 PM
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JesseL
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Edited: 09-Aug-07
Member Since: 03/01/2007
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I think any martial arts works!!! Its what you put into it. Chen style taijiquan, I mean there is more then just going thru the forms. There is silk reeling, push hands etc. I mean you cant go to a karate class and expect it to work if you only put 15 minutes into it a week. Come on now. I mean there is sport karate and there is I am gonna tear your head off karate. Man I am so sick of this so and so is a BJJ black belt.... I mean i am into BJJ and no its not the "ULITIMATE" system. I mean fight on the real streets where there are more the one person and no the last place you want to go is the ground. trust me i know after i was punched by by one guy in the head and kicked by anoter while i was in mount on this guy...
8/10/07 12:18 AM
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WizzleTeats
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Edited: 10-Aug-07
Member Since: 06/07/2006
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I disagree. Not every martial art works--some are nearly useless in a real fight (aikido comes to mind) while others are applicable very quickly (muay thai for example). Someone with 6 months MT with smash pretty much any "combative" tai chi person. It is simply not effective due to the time it takes to learn from scratch. If you have a solid base in a realistic fighting art you can make it work, though.
8/10/07 9:31 AM
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GaydarBlane
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Edited: 10-Aug-07
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^^ Like I said before, I think this is more an issue of focus in training. I consider myself mainly a combat sports practitioner. My main stays are boxing and BJJ, but I do regular thai boxing and have supplemented it with JKD, Judo, and wrestling. I started Tai Chi mainly for something to do with my wife and for relaxation. The "principles" and "theories" are all pretty sound as far as wrestling and clinch fighting go and you'll see similar principles in judo or wrestling class. It's the fact that they focus on the esoteric stuff so much more than just putting their principles into action. I could take tai chi principles and moves and turn somebody into a pretty nasty stand up grappler in 6 months (compared to others with 6 months of training). Of course what they'd be doing would look a lot like jacketless Judo and Greco with some strikes from the clinch thrown in. The training would be pretty similar as well. The only difference being maybe 1 or 2 unorthodox throws or strikes. I have a hard time believing that back in the day, people had to do years of forms and stance training before they started combatives. I'd think it likely more the other way around. They started combatives immediately, and refined their technique through time using forms and stance training as supplements to their training. Kind of like BJJ where you have guys basically spazzing with some basics at white belt and over time they become more fluid and technical where they can control bigger people with seemingly little effort. Really like any other combat sport...
8/10/07 3:30 PM
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yusul
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Edited: 10-Aug-07
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no the difference is that if they were soldiers or bodyguards, they would actually apply maybe at least a few times a month for real. the forms might be a type of recovery so their fighting doesn't get too sloppy.
8/10/07 4:26 PM
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JesseL
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Edited: 10-Aug-07
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yeah wizzle I agree with the Aikido.. Ok you got me there...............Yeah gaydar i beleive you are right they probably did do combatives right from the start.......But you also have the Hong Jun Sheng which they say is geared strictly for combat... I want to a Chen Xiawang seminar once before I even heard of chen tai ch just out of curiosity and I tell you what I wouldnt want to meet him in any fight. ..Either way I think chen taijiquan is cool.........
8/11/07 1:36 PM
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JasonKeaton
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Edited: 11-Aug-07
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I think the principles are there whether you give them a name or not.
8/11/07 11:42 PM
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WizzleTeats
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Edited: 11-Aug-07
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"I have a hard time believing that back in the day, people had to do years of forms and stance training before they started combatives. I'd think it likely more the other way around. They started combatives immediately, and refined their technique through time using forms and stance training as supplements to their training." Not really. By all accounts, trainees really did have to spend quite a bit of time on the basics--stance training, etc--before learning applications. That's one of the reasons why there is so much garbage in Chinese TMA. Some people were only taught the very basics (forms and stances), others were intentionally taught at only a surface level, and only very few got the real, complete systems. Even then, the techniques they learned would be geared towards their apptitudes. "yeah wizzle I agree with the Aikido.. Ok you got me there...............Yeah gaydar i beleive you are right they probably did do combatives right from the start.......But you also have the Hong Jun Sheng which they say is geared strictly for combat... I want to a Chen Xiawang seminar once before I even heard of chen tai ch just out of curiosity and I tell you what I wouldnt want to meet him in any fight. ..Either way I think chen taijiquan is cool......... " I like Chen taiji too, but you have to realize that it's not a fighting art these days. You need to be able to fight FIRST and then learn Chen style techniques.
8/13/07 7:29 AM
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GaydarBlane
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Edited: 13-Aug-07
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"Not really. By all accounts, trainees really did have to spend quite a bit of time on the basics--stance training, etc--before learning applications. That's one of the reasons why there is so much garbage in Chinese TMA. Some people were only taught the very basics (forms and stances), others were intentionally taught at only a surface level, and only very few got the real, complete systems. Even then, the techniques they learned would be geared towards their apptitudes." Actually that's not really true. It's a popular notion though and was indeed true for places like the Shaolin temple. Most people had more pressing needs as there were no police. They needed to be able to defend family, property, and village from bandits. It wasn't like "OK. Now you practice these stances for 4 years, and let's just hope nothing happens to yoru family in that time." Let's not even get into the fact that CMA was largely practiced by criminals in order to fight each other and victimize the innocent. Most of my research on MA history is CMA, and the more you get away from the folklore, which usually resembles some Shaw Brothers kung fu flick, and the closer to get to scholarly research, the training becomes much more realistic. I'm not saying that masters didn't hide the "good stuff" and string people along because they didn't like or trust them. For the students they did like, the training was intense almost right away. The more famous masters could afford to be more selective since people came to them with different needs and most likely already had experience in training and fighting with a village style. "I like Chen taiji too, but you have to realize that it's not a fighting art these days. You need to be able to fight FIRST and then learn Chen style techniques" I think that is the case with vast majority of TMA these days.

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