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LEOGround >> weapon retention


12/22/06 2:31 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 22-Dec-06
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a lot of very effective MA techniques aren't that useful in your typical 6 month or less police academy, simply because you can't learn to execute them at a high enough level on that time period. any realistic training program must take that into account. but do you think the kimura/hammerlock would be worth teaching? it seems very useful for weapon retention - anytime they're reaching to your waist, they're wide open of it. it can easily be added to the old "pin and spin" weapon retention - anytime they grab for your weapon, "pin" (the wrist instead of the weapon, same effect). you grab for the kimura grip on the first spin, and then just keep spinning into them, pushing their hand off your weapon and behind their back till you get them down (arm cranked behind their back). kimura is probably the easiest and most versatile jointlock out there and even if you completely screw it up, something good usually happens. you can do almost the same motion on the ground. and untrained guys really don't know how to stop even a really bad kimura with no position or leverage.
12/22/06 11:38 AM
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CUFFS137
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Edited: 22-Dec-06
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I'm a hige endorser of the kimura for LE purposes, and have found that it is available almost any time the outside wrist lock is. I don't trust small joint manipulation as I have encountered many guys who can either muscle out, or who care less about a pain in the wrist/lower arm, than they do about going to jail. If a wrist lock is failing, it must be quickly abandoned. The kimora IMO is a higher percentage hold that can be held onto throughout many combative scenarios, and applied from more positions.
12/22/06 12:37 PM
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FJJ828
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Edited: 22-Dec-06
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NAPLES BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU L.L.C.
I feel pretty strongly that for people who are only going to see the training every few years, that the Kimura holstered gun retention is a huge waste of training time. I watched Lee Peacock try to teach it at a conference once, long after I quit teaching it and it cemented my opinion. After 45 minutes, 90% of the people were still clueless and going under rather than over the shoulder. Now, for a cop who trains? No problem.
12/23/06 2:11 PM
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itsahak
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Edited: 23-Dec-06
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FJJ828 took the words right out of my mouth. I personally don't teach subs to basic students. I think its too much too do, to much of a chance of excessive force complaints/lawsuits (this stems from the the fact the roughly 75-80% of the academy classes I teach are made up of county Sheriff's that may not have back up for 30-45 minutes. ON a good a day. It has been known to be longer.) Now when I do an Advanced DT or an Advanced Instructor school, I'll give it to them, or if i have a basic student with training I may give subs to them with a warning.
12/25/06 12:53 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 25-Dec-06 12:52 AM
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i see where guys are coming, but i must respectfully disagree. i DO completely agree (normally) with not training basic students with submissions. but IMO, this is the easiest sub for a beginner to use, and as i mentioned earlier, it has mechanics uniquely suited to both this purpose, and to basic students. in my area, everyone is ALREADY being taught "pin and spin" for weapon retention. that is MOST of the motion i was going to give them. all i'm doing is adding a grip for their other arm. "clueless, and going under rather than over the shoulder" as i mentioned in my first post, i completely expect many people to completely screw up the kimura. thats the beauty of the kimura - even if you completely fuck it up, SOMETHING good usually happens. if they completely missed the kimura grip and simply ended up going for a "2 on 1" on the hand grabbing the holster, and then did the regular "pin and spin", it would STILL be a dramatic improvement over the standard "pin and spin". jiujitsu is a complex art. but most of jiu jitsu is defenses against maneuvers only jiu jitsu experts know. against guys with no grappling experience, kimura immediately ties up one of their hands, and is pretty much a universal sweep and counter to EVERYTHING. find some guy, bigger and stronger than you, on his first day at the gym, and let him get all kinds of good positions on you. do even a half assed kimura on him, with bad position and weak leverage, and you will still sweep him all over the place. you could submit him, but this isn't the classic tight jiujitsu kimura, this is "kimura for dummies" (and LE :) don't bother teaching them to really lock it in and finish it. they probably wouldn't remember it, and it would probably just get people hurt and sued anyway. just teach them to grab for it and spin into the attacker, pushing their arm behind them and high (into the upper/middle of their back, not the real kimura finish). this works pretty damn effectively just lever them into the ground, face down with a hand behind their back, in classic "speed cuffing" position. the more resistance, people will naturally crank the lock higher and harder.
12/25/06 1:02 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 25-Dec-06 01:01 AM
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after re-reading your posts, i actually think i agree with you - the classic jiujiutsu kimura is not worth teaching to most LE. i should been clearer about what i was talking about. i believe there is a "dumbed down", safer, simpler version of the kimura that would be pretty useful to LE.
12/28/06 5:15 AM
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Jerry Bohlander
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Edited: 28-Dec-06
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I personally feel that the kimura is probably the best weapon retention to teach. It's easy to teach and effective. It's the single weapon retention that I have been teaching in the very limited time that I have.
12/28/06 11:18 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 28-Dec-06
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it's an honor to be seconded by a living legend like jerry bohlander. i hope everything is working out for you. sometimes petty, political, power hungry old men will leave the real street cops "out to dry" to advance their own careers.
12/28/06 1:18 PM
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hkmp5
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Edited: 28-Dec-06 01:22 PM
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Yip, I agree the Kimura would work great...on the fasting protestor not really intent on taking your weapon. But what about the psychopath hell bent on killing you? To take a page out of Tony Blauer's book, "Control techniques do not work for out of control situations". In my opinion, which isn't much, you have to do something to change the bad guys mindset and I don't think the Kimura is the answer. Look at the Renzo Gracie fight, the Kimura definitely didn't make him to want to stop fighting. Not only that, but every police department I have ever worked for or taught at considers a gun grab a deadly force situation. If that is the case then why are we telling our officers to use a control technique instead of justifiable deadly force. By doing this, I think we send the wrong message to our officers and do not prepare them mentally for a deadly force encounter. Again, I am speaking of the psychopath and not the fasting protestor. If I am able to secure my weapon in the holster with at least one hand, then why not use my other hand to filet the guy with my tactical folder, strike him about the face repeatedly, stick my thumb in his eye, or something violent that will make him want to let go of my gun and get away from me. If your officers are not strong enough to use one hand, then the most important thing you can tell them is to maintain control of their weapon, in the holster or heaven forbid it comes out, with both hands and not to sacrifice their grip trying to do a control hold they only practice once a year. Just my two cents.
12/29/06 11:08 PM
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Jerry Bohlander
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Edited: 29-Dec-06 11:32 PM
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I'm not talking about using it as a control technique. If you fully dislocate someones elbow or shoulder there is a pretty good chance it is unusable. I was at the fight when Renzo's arm went pop. I don't think he could have effectively used it. Not to mention, Renzo it tough as hell. Most guys would be completely incapacitated as an end result. If nothing else, when you lock it up the kimura can effectively prevent the suspect from unholstering your sidearm, therefore buying you much needed time. I don't think that you can effectively secure the sidearm with one hand and do anything really effective at the same time. I like the kimura because you can control the arm, prevent unholstering, tear out joints, and use it as a control device for follow-up takedowns. It's not perfect, but it's better than the other options that I have explored plus I feel that it is a simple technique to teach.
12/30/06 2:49 PM
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WalMart Shoes
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Edited: 30-Dec-06
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If you look at the skill level of the average officer and how much in-service they get per month, quarter, or even year, you have to keep things simple and gross motor. Why not just trap the gun in the holster with both hands and move INTO the suspect. If you look at human tendancy, if you pull one way, the other person naturally pulls in the opposite direction. If you go toward the suspect, this may help keep it in the holster. Weapon retention is a deadly force scenario. Deadly force should be met with deadly force. Trap the weapon in the holster until you have the opportunity to bite, eye gouge, elbow the face or throat, grab twist pull or strike the groin. LEOs training is often watered down. If you have a good understanding of Tennessee v. Garner and Graham v. Connor, you can articulate to your students that violence is acceptable and often encouraged.
12/30/06 5:09 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 30-Dec-06
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walmart shoes, legit points. here is counterpoint. the reson for teaching the kimura is because, yes, i completely expect a lot of people to completely screw up the kimura. but even if they do, they're going to end up in exactly the technique you described. or maybe they get the kimura and its game over. the great thing about the kimura is that you can completely screw it up, and something good still usually happens. and to address another point, if you read my original post, i never suggested teaching this at "in service training" or refresher. i was talking about teaching it at the 6 month academy used in my city, and many other departments.
12/30/06 9:14 PM
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WalMart Shoes
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Edited: 30-Dec-06
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Hey Gannon. Sorry for overlooking the part about a six month academy. Even so, once they leave the academy, they probably won't practice very much. As you know fighting, joint locks, and arm bars are perishable skills. I feel the concept of weapon retention should be the same no matter where the weapon is carried (weapon side on duty belt, cross draw under a shirt, undercover holster when off duty, shoulder rig, tucked in waistband, fanny pack, etc.). The concept should also be the same no matter where the attacker grabs from (front, weapon side, non-weapon side, rear) If you stress to trap the weapon in the holster, and move in the direction of the attack, it works from all angles or carry positions and it is about as gross motor as you can get. If you teach violent strikes from many positions as well as off balance postitions and let the LEO choose what they are comfortable with, they may be more sucessful at defeating the attack.
2/27/07 9:22 PM
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KidJustice
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Edited: 27-Feb-07
Member Since: 02/15/2002
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I love the kimura as a retention tool!  I started teaching it to my guys about a year ago and now they look for it all the time even when we are rolling!
6/7/07 9:17 AM
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KidJustice
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Edited: 07-Jun-07
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TTT
6/7/07 9:34 AM
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fishluv
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Edited: 07-Jun-07
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good stuff. i never really had anyone go for my gun in the field, I did have a guy grab me by the gunbelt once.
6/7/07 2:36 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 07-Jun-07 04:33 PM
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thanks for the input and support. kidjustice, i see how this dovetails with what you posted on the armed robbery vid. try and post a link, it's gruesome stuff, but valuable to guys like us. http://mma.tv/tuf/index.cfm?FID=1&a=57&TID=0
6/7/07 9:31 PM
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B Sharps
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Edited: 07-Jun-07
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TTT good thread, the only thing I will add is that weapons retention scenarios are not considered deadly force situations for all agencies or departments (it isn't for mine due to the subject's lack of unresticted access to the weapon).
6/8/07 12:22 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 08-Jun-07
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LOL I certainly consider it deadly force, but my Department sure doesn't! they told us that a 4000lb motor vehicle careening towards us at 60 miles an hour is no longer "deadly force" either. tell that to the dead cop, his wife and kids. F*CK YOU!
6/8/07 12:43 AM
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B Sharps
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Edited: 08-Jun-07
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Gannon, As you know, how we feel personally and the policy we have to folow don't always line up. As an instructor I have to teach policy and hope that I can convince the brass and the lawyers that this gets vetted through that there are better and safer ways for the officer to do their job. At the end of the day, regardless of the situatuion, I am going home and I hope and pray I have taught my students enough that they will also.
6/8/07 6:32 AM
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Jerry Bohlander
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Edited: 08-Jun-07
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I don't know about other departments policies, but in mine it is the "FEAR" of death or GBI that ups the ante. Articulating that you did what you did because you feared what he would do with your weapon is important. I mean, the bad guy isn't trying to take your gun for a souvenir. I know the brass kind of forgets what goes on in the real world, but do they loose their imagination and common sense when they promote?
6/11/07 12:55 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 11-Jun-07 02:05 PM
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"I know the brass kind of forgets what goes on in the real world, but do they loose their imagination and common sense when they promote?" yes. and the faster you get promoted, the less street experience you have, and the higher you get, the longer have been away from the street.
6/11/07 8:38 PM
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fishluv
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Edited: 11-Jun-07
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And the more of an asshat kissass you are the faster you get promoted.......
6/12/07 5:10 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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Edited: 12-Jun-07
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fishluv knows the game. who you know is more important that what you know. and more important than who you know is who you blow.
7/25/07 7:24 AM
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nelson riddle
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Edited: 25-Jul-07
Member Since: 09/16/2006
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The Kimura is not that tuff to learn. I teach it for weapon retention and it works well. I know Lee Peacock, he is a great instructor, it most likely was his audience! I also like what Joe Hess teaches in Broward for knife defense, "attack the attack" as he calls it. Defend,trap and simultaneously attack the subject. Headbutts, throat attacks, eye gouges so on.This works well in weapon retention also..

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