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LEOGround >> weapon retention


7/25/07 1:04 PM
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KidJustice
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Edited: 25-Jul-07
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Hey not all of us supervisors are asshats!!!!!  Gannon is a Sgt and I'm a Sup too (wear major rank as a GS-13)

But I agree many of my fellow supervisors could not fight their way out of a dixie cup.

Oh and they shoot like shit too!

7/27/07 4:00 PM
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fishluv
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Edited: 27-Jul-07
Member Since: 04/25/2007
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You must admit that at one time or another upon hearing who got promoted you or someone near you said out loud" I can't believe xyz got the job,xyz is a dumbass" this is why I think I will eventually be OIC of an office.
7/30/07 5:33 AM
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Jerry Bohlander
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Edited: 30-Jul-07
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Kid, we know not all are asshats. But alot (most) are.
8/6/07 8:15 PM
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DaveM
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Edited: 06-Aug-07
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"even if you completely screw it up, something good usually happens." Is that how you pulled that guy's arm out of it's socket a while back?
8/22/07 8:14 AM
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warmonky
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Edited: 22-Aug-07 08:19 AM
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8/24/07 9:47 PM
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minder
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Edited: 24-Aug-07
Member Since: 04/21/2007
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I have used a modified kimura to bring a resisting subject into a position to be able to pin and anchor the arm long enough to get to my cuffs.
4/13/08 6:30 PM
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wyojkd
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Edited: Apr 13 2008 12:00A
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 Question on the position of kimura for weapon retention. If you go for a kimura standing it is essentially a 2 on 1 scenario either way if its on right or not. Most LEO rigs I see where I live an exentendable baton or  other Less than lethal alternative is on other hip.

  1. If I am 2 on 1 how do I prevent him from obtaining the items other hip?
  2. If I go 1 on 1 with just a pin trap with backwards or rotating direction to dispel his force of direction and then draw my Less - lethal item be a better alternative. Or use with the hand pin, outside foot trap, and shoulder stop for a unbalancing sweep be good also.

I only ask because as trying to control a person I am using both of my hands against his one. I know a million scenarios exist but  seems very risky because we don't know whats happening with the off hand.

 

 

4/15/08 6:54 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Edited: Apr 15 2008 12:00A
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In most cases gun retention is practiced wrong. If some one is grabbing your firearm then they obviously have bad intentions. Usually with that attitude comes extreme forward pressure, this aggressiveness first must be dealt with, when you try to do anything pin and spin or anything prior this you will get blown over. Take in consideration, low light and climate and you might as well try a finger lock. Control the forward presure first. J.M.
4/15/08 10:29 PM
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wyojkd
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Edited: Apr 15 2008 12:00A
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Joe Maffei - In most cases gun retention is practiced wrong. If some one is grabbing your firearm then they obviously have bad intentions. Usually with that attitude comes extreme forward pressure, this aggressiveness first must be dealt with, when you try to do anything pin and spin or anything prior this you will get blown over. Take in consideration, low light and climate and you might as well try a finger lock. Control the forward presure first. J.M.


 That is along the same lines as I was implying. I do like the idea of a pain compliance to the fingers to dispell energy first. thats fairly easy and can be done with the one hand.

I was just giving the scope of awareness and that more could be going on than just the weapon grab. That off hand and entire enviroment needs monitored. Two on one with the hands lends the defender at a huge disadvantage I believe.

4/15/08 10:51 PM
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Joe Maffei
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Edited: Apr 15 2008 12:00A
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wyojkd, I know I agree with you bro, you don't know what's up with the other hand, I was kidding about the finger lock. pain compliance is fine if the guys is not resisting and you have the lock on. what I mean is you might never get that far because of the aggressiveness of the offender driving and struggling. then it's a bitch to do anything except try to control the body. people don't stand stationary, they fight and in the fight they grab the firearm.
4/15/08 11:47 PM
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wyojkd
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Edited: Apr 15 2008 12:00A
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Joe Maffei

 AHH, I didn't catch the implied joke, I read to the post to fast. Still could work. I had a sheriff friend who was very good at those small joint manipulations. As long as its very accessable. I agree its a whirl wind of action in any struggle. Create and control the distance even if you lose it in the initial rush you need to get it back so its easier to asses the threat and options to dispell the threat.

4/16/08 10:18 AM
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Joe Maffei
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Edited: Apr 16 2008 12:00A
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wyojkd Here is the bottom line. Most of the time the retention is taught by tactical firearms guys, not DT. And even if it was DT, there not fighters there defensive tactics, tactics is not fighting. And departments are not going to train fighters because they would actually have to fight.. Problem 1. Law suits from the public. 2. days out from injuries during training, no one wants to pay . 3. Department head may be close to retirement and is not willing to make change or rock the boat at this stage of his career. 4. Cost to much to initiate a program. 5. Officers won't get training outside the department unless the department pays. Check out my seamless integration program. Read some articles on my website by other officers. It was first developed for military and LE but now offered to the public. www.thecombatnation.com J.M.
5/4/12 1:08 AM
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ringworm
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GladiatorGannon - "I know the brass kind of forgets what goes on in the real world, but do they loose their imagination and common sense when they promote?"yes.and the faster you get promoted, the less street experience you have, and the higher you get, the longer have been away from the street.


There's actually quantitative evidence for this. A while ago I looked at a study of police shootings which categorized officers by IQ. The chance of a shooting being ruled justified increased as officer IQ increased up till the highest category of IQ, when it dropped sharply. It was theorized that the reason for this was that officers with the highest test scores were most likely to be promoted into desk jobs, and therefore most likely to lack important real world experience.
5/4/12 6:04 PM
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Shire
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Ok, I did not read ALL the posts, but from my stand point, we need to teach cops to severely hurt anyone trying to take our guns. Cool subs are nice to teach, but in a real fight with deadly results, most (by this I mean average) police can not control a person long enough to get the kimora completed.

I know, I know, many want to spout this technique or that, but the average, non training cop will not have skill to defeat an attacker. And remember, this is life or death, not finishing with a sub! If someone goes for our gun, they get kicked in the nuts, elbowed in the jaw or temple, or whatever!! PERIOD. Cool techniques get us paid or recognized as trainers, but for the lowest common denominator (40 yr old slightly overweight cop) this stuff wont work for them.

I have been a martial artist for 41 yrs, certified police trainer for 21 yrs. Lets keep it real, sometimes wild ass throwin down beats fine motor movements. Be safe to all!
5/4/12 6:28 PM
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GladiatorGannon
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Shire - Ok, I did not read ALL the posts, but from my stand point, we need to teach cops to severely hurt anyone trying to take our guns. Cool subs are nice to teach, but in a real fight with deadly results, most (by this I mean average) police can not control a person long enough to get the kimora completed.

I know, I know, many want to spout this technique or that, but the average, non training cop will not have skill to defeat an attacker. And remember, this is life or death, not finishing with a sub! If someone goes for our gun, they get kicked in the nuts, elbowed in the jaw or temple, or whatever!! PERIOD. Cool techniques get us paid or recognized as trainers, but for the lowest common denominator (40 yr old slightly overweight cop) this stuff wont work for them.

I have been a martial artist for 41 yrs, certified police trainer for 21 yrs. Lets keep it real, sometimes wild ass throwin down beats fine motor movements. Be safe to all!


One of the reasons I favor the kimura is that it IS a fairly gross motor movement, and even if you completely fuck it up, something good will happen. I'm not talking about pulling guard with it, I'm talking about grabbing it and just ripping it. Your opponent WILL move.
5/5/12 5:21 AM
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Shire
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Gladiator; maybe you can rip it, but a lot of cops cant, thats my point. We (I mean me around my area) have cops that wont even stay in shape let alone work on skills. The guys that posted on here seem legit, I dont mean to sound all knowing, cause i am not. But I see some trainers trying to teach arm bars for cops etc, just need to keep it simple thats all. Any skill that saves lives is worth it of course.
I like the Kimura to reverse if cop is on bottom and perp is going for his gun, you?
5/6/12 11:46 PM
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FJJ828
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 I would tend to agree that the Kimura as it is taught in BJJ and Submission Grappling is often lost on the average front line officer. If you have four hours a year or less to cover general DT for your troops, I would not waste time on the Kimura.

What I like for myself as a BJJ player since 97 is not really relevant. As long as you know your audience and don't gear your classes for what YOU like, you have a better chance of staying honest.
5/7/12 12:21 AM
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GladiatorGannon
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FJJ828 -  I would tend to agree that the Kimura as it is taught in BJJ and Submission Grappling is often lost on the average front line officer.


So do I, which is why I would never suggest teaching it as such.
5/8/12 4:39 AM
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Shire
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Good chatting with you....yes, teaching cops is really different because of limitations, both physically, legally as well as tactically. LEO's cant go from mount to arm bar, and then roll over to handcuff an offender. Nor can we/they learn or practice enough to make the skills work under pressure. COPs just dont train enouogh, at least the ones that really need the skills. How many 6-04 250 cops do you know that NEED skills training for basic arrests?

Great to have well trained men on here to chat with.
5/16/12 7:26 PM
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chinaski
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 I actually have used the Kimura to defend against a weapon grab. I was walking a formally cooperative prisoner into cells when he suddenly started to resist. I kicked his legs out from under him and put pressure on his back while he was in the kneeling position. He surpised me by standing straight up with me on top of him, he was about 5'11 180 and I was 6'3 270 at the time, so needless to say this was unexpected.

As he got to his feet he turned into me and got me in a body lock and started driving into me. There were other members in the cell area but they were too far away to get into the fray as this unfolded extremely quickly. Then I felt his hands grabbing at my holster on the far side. I immediately transitioned into the kimura and applied maximum force, forcing him to the ground. Unfortunately for him his descent was interupted by the steel rim of the eyewash station, which collided with his forehead. I moved him to the ground where I noted the blood literally spurting from his forehead. I handcuffed him, got him into cells and called an ambulance. No permanent damage to his shouler but his forehead still bears a sizable "divot-type" scar. He probably will not attempt to grab another police officer's gun..
2/21/13 4:38 PM
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IP
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Jerry Bohlander - Kid, we know not all are asshats. But alot (most) are.

Supervisors (Sgts)?




*Backs out of thread slowly*
2/21/13 4:43 PM
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Jerry Bohlander
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chinaski -  I actually have used the Kimura to defend against a weapon grab. I was walking a formally cooperative prisoner into cells when he suddenly started to resist. I kicked his legs out from under him and put pressure on his back while he was in the kneeling position. He surpised me by standing straight up with me on top of him, he was about 5'11 180 and I was 6'3 270 at the time, so needless to say this was unexpected.

As he got to his feet he turned into me and got me in a body lock and started driving into me. There were other members in the cell area but they were too far away to get into the fray as this unfolded extremely quickly. Then I felt his hands grabbing at my holster on the far side. I immediately transitioned into the kimura and applied maximum force, forcing him to the ground. Unfortunately for him his descent was interupted by the steel rim of the eyewash station, which collided with his forehead. I moved him to the ground where I noted the blood literally spurting from his forehead. I handcuffed him, got him into cells and called an ambulance. No permanent damage to his shouler but his forehead still bears a sizable "divot-type" scar. He probably will not attempt to grab another police officer's gun..

This is great. I am glad to hear that it works in more than theory. I knew it would, I just like hearing real life examples. My trainees, fellow instructors, and I have used it in countless scenarios. I know a scenario isn't real, but we make them as realistic as possible. Admin has jumped my teams ass more than a few times for pushing people hard in class. It might not work every time, but what technique does?
8/5/13 7:55 PM
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Shire
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Pipehitterstactical.com

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