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PoliticalGround >> United States does not torture?


12/26/06 9:32 PM
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Yougottawanna
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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In September of 2002, a Canadian citizen named Maher Arar was arrested as a terror suspect at JFK airport. He was flown by a CIA plane to Jordan, then driven to Syria, where he was imprisoned and tortured for 10 months. There was insufficient evidence to detain him in either the US or Canada - in fact, a report by a Canadian commission claims that there is no basis for the belief that Arar was involved with terrorists in any way. So a Canadian citizen can be arrested, rendered to a foreign country, and imprisoned and tortured for nearly a year without having charges brought against him, or being given the opportunity to defend himself in court. Furthermore, according to the canadian commission investigating the matter now, there was almost negligible reason to even suspect that he was affiliated with a terrorist group, much less be able to prove such a charge. The abuse of power that so many people, myself included, though COULD happen IS happening, and has been happening for some time. You can read about the report in the link below. It's worse than I thought, and I thought it was pretty bad. Link
12/26/06 9:36 PM
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forsaken
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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"The abuse of power that so many people, myself included, though COULD happen IS happening" ....and has been happening for decades. Do you think we just started to torture people in the last 6 years?
12/26/06 9:38 PM
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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Finding out who started extraordinary rendition would be beneficial to some people.
12/26/06 9:42 PM
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StephenL
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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Maher Arar that name reeks of guilt. stephen
12/26/06 9:43 PM
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Yougottawanna
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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"Finding out who started extraordinary rendition would be beneficial to some people." I assume "some people" is me, can you elaborate on your statement? While extraordinary rendition was in use before the current administration, previously rendered suspects like Carlos the Jackal and Ramzi Yousef were rendered to the country that seized them, not sent to a third country to be detained. What's more, I don't see how when the practice started has any bearing on any judgement about its fairness or ethics.
12/26/06 9:45 PM
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Marshal Law
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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Better safe than sorry.
12/26/06 10:00 PM
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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While extraordinary rendition was in use before the current administration, previously rendered suspects like Carlos the Jackal and Ramzi Yousef were rendered to the country that seized them, not sent to a third country to be detained. You could not be any more incorrect. Check out Ahmed Osman Saleh. What's more, I don't see how when the practice started has any bearing on any judgement about its fairness or ethics. You wrote: The abuse of power that so many people, myself included, though COULD happen IS happening, and has been happening for some time. Are you seriously claiming that this is not supposed to be a knock on the Bush Administration?
12/26/06 10:11 PM
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Yougottawanna
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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"You could not be any more incorrect. Check out Ahmed Osman Saleh." Googling "Ahmed Osman Saleh" found me a report on overgrazing in the Arabian peninsula, a list of prisoners from a site called farajat.com but with no additional information, and various other things. Can you give more information please? "Are you seriously claiming that this is not supposed to be a knock on the Bush Administration?" Yes. I never mentioned Bush in my post (yes the title alludes to something he said). But if this happened under a democratic president I would be against it as well. This is supposed to be a "knock" on the practice of rendering people to countries to be imprisoned without charges and tortured. Forget about partisan politics and just tell me if you think this practice is ethical, fair, or even practical or cost-effective considering who was arrested in this case.
12/26/06 10:14 PM
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Corey
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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Konquer the Kage MMA
"Better safe than sorry" is correct.
12/26/06 10:15 PM
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sicko
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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yeah, but we didn't *do* the torture, ...we just didn't care that it was going on
12/26/06 10:15 PM
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unclephilly
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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12/26/06 10:19 PM
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Information
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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Googling "Ahmed Osman Saleh" found me a report on overgrazing in the Arabian peninsula, a list of prisoners from a site called farajat.com but with no additional information, and various other things. Can you give more information please? Improve your Google skills. Yes. LOL. OK, when you're ready to have a serious conversation let me know.
12/26/06 10:35 PM
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Yougottawanna
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Edited: 26-Dec-06 10:35 PM
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So Ahmed Osman Saleh appears to be a rendered and tortured prisoner in 1998. My mistake. "LOL. OK, when you're ready to have a serious conversation let me know." So you think that I'm lying, and if this happened during a democratic administration and I found out about I wouldn't criticize it, and this invalidates any objections I have to the current practice of rendition? Could you explain why you think I'm not ready to have what you consider to be a serious conversation? What can I do to be worthy of having my views validated by you as "serious"?
12/26/06 10:42 PM
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Souljacker
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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"The abuse of power that so many people, myself included, though COULD happen IS happening, and has been happening for some time." stop with the political whinning, that kind of thing has been going on for more than 5 or 10 years and before Bush was even born, but its just more of a political agenda being pushed
12/26/06 10:45 PM
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Yougottawanna
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Edited: 26-Dec-06 10:45 PM
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"stop with the political whinning, that kind of thing has been going on for more than 5 or 10 years and before Bush was even born, but its just more of a political agenda being pushed" You consider objecting to a suspect being held for 10 months and tortured during that time, without being charged, to be "political whining"? Do you consider this type of rendition to be an acceptable practice because it has been going on for so long? Forget Bush for a minute. Pretend it's a democratic president in office if you want. This would still be equally unacceptable. Let me repeat what I said in my first response on this thread: "I don't see how when the practice started has any bearing on any judgement about its fairness or ethics."
12/26/06 10:45 PM
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Floppy Divac
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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SJ, no need to come charging in here with that attitude, you're not bouncing right now so take off your ego and make yourself comfortable. :)
12/26/06 10:51 PM
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Souljacker
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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"You consider objecting to a suspect being held for 10 months and tortured during that time, without being charged, to be "political whining"?" yes I do because why don't you do all the research on all the people who claim this for I don't know how many years and then go and then play the blame game "Do you consider this type of rendition to be an acceptable practice because it has been going on for so long?" No it is not acceptable but you seem to only be concerned with it now because "your guy" is not in office "Forget Bush for a minute. Pretend it's a democratic president in office if you want. This would still be equally unacceptable." I can only hope you would feel the same, I can't say that you would "Let me repeat what I said in my first response on this thread: "I don't see how when the practice started has any bearing on any judgement about its fairness or ethics." Im not talking about the fairness or ethhics of the these actions, Im talking about the fairness and ethics of your thread
12/26/06 11:01 PM
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Yougottawanna
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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"yes I do because why don't you do all the research on all the people who claim this for I don't know how many years and then go and then play the blame gam" Fine, right on this very thread is an example of someone rendered and tortured in 1998 (Saleh). I didn't find the example myself I'm sorry but it shouldn't matter. "No it is not acceptable but you seem to only be concerned with it now because "your guy" is not in office" Can you or anyone else respond to the issue at hand without second-guessing why I made the thread? Even if I DID make to bash Bush, and I didn't, it doesn't make rendition and torture any less disgusting. "I can only hope you would feel the same, I can't say that you would" What are you, a fucking swami? Are you reading my mind? For the dozenth time, it doesn't fucking matter who does it, it's wrong. "Im not talking about the fairness or ethhics of the these actions, Im talking about the fairness and ethics of your thread" Fine, I'm sorry I cited an example of rendition that occurred during a republican administration without citing one that happened during a democratic administration. Now that information has been helpful enough to provide one (seriously), can we all move on, and forget under what party this is happening, since it's clear that it's happened under both?
12/26/06 11:09 PM
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Souljacker
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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"SJ, no need to come charging in here with that attitude, you're not bouncing right now so take off your ego and make yourself comfortable. :) " no ego, just tips please
12/26/06 11:11 PM
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JonnySak
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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sounds like Syria is doing the torturing not the US, imo.
12/26/06 11:17 PM
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Souljacker
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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"Fine, right on this very thread is an example of someone rendered and tortured in 1998 (Saleh). I didn't find the example myself I'm sorry but it shouldn't matter. " the problem is you think this is something new and the simple fact is, that it has been going on since forever "Can you or anyone else respond to the issue at hand without second-guessing why I made the thread? Even if I DID make to bash Bush, and I didn't, it doesn't make rendition and torture any less disgusting."\ Im less intersted in your thread because I know its coming from an agenda on your part and your hatred for Bush. Our CIA and FBI and all the otyher agencies have been doing this to try and help the country for years, Im not saying that makes it OK, but you think they are just picking out people for the hell of it to maybe have some fun "What are you, a fucking swami? Are you reading my mind? For the dozenth time, it doesn't fucking matter who does it, it's wrong. " why are you getting so angry? yes its wrong but do you think these actions have ever helped our country? "Fine, I'm sorry I cited an example of rendition that occurred during a republican administration without citing one that happened during a democratic administration. Now that information has been helpful enough to provide one (seriously), can we all move on, and forget under what party this is happening, since it's clear that it's happened under both? " its happened under every president most likely since 1776, its fucked up yes but the government is not just picking people at random to do this to or for their jollies
12/26/06 11:52 PM
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Yougottawanna
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Edited: 26-Dec-06 11:57 PM
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"sounds like Syria is doing the torturing not the US, imo." Syria is doing the torturing, but the US sends the prisoners to these countries knowing full well that they will be tortured, and for that reason. In addition, there is some evidence that suggest that actual US federal employees are engaged in the torturing itself. "the problem is you think this is something new and the simple fact is, that it has been going on since forever" How long it has or hasn't been going on has no bearing on my point, which is that this practice is contrary to American ideals and needs to stop. "Im less intersted in your thread because I know its coming from an agenda on your part and your hatred for Bush." No it's not. You're just flat wrong. I don't "hate" Bush and I didn't make this thread to bash him. You've completely misread the situation and my intentions. I don't know what else to tell you. "why are you getting so angry? yes its wrong but do you think these actions have ever helped our country?" I'm getting frusturated because I've said several times that I would condemn these actions if they happened under a democratic president as well, and you've basically called me a liar. Furthermore, your insistence on second-guessing my motives has changed this from a thread about the practice of rendition and torture to a thread about my personal politics, which are irrevelant. "Our CIA and FBI and all the otyher agencies have been doing this to try and help the country for years, Im not saying that makes it OK, but you think they are just picking out people for the hell of it to maybe have some fun" We assume they're doing it to try and help the country. And in this case you may be right, however misguided and negligent they were. However, one of the purposees of a legal system is to allow the accused to see and respond to the evidence and charges against him or her. This is to prevent abuse of power, and in this case and many others it's simply not happening. There is nothing stopping government agents from imprisoning and torturing completely innocent people based on their personal agenda or views but their own sense of restraint. And no matter how admirable or well-developed their sense of restraint is, this is simply not an acceptable check on their power. Even a cursory study of history tells us that when the potential for abuse of power without any kind of oversight or check is there, the actual abuse is inevitable. What seperates the law enforcement and intelligence agencies of the US, which work for the public good, from those of a totalitarian country in which the "law enforcement"'s first job is to intimidate or dispose of rivals to the current politicians in power? The answer is checks, oversight, transparency, all the things that are being continuously chipped away at even as I type this. "its happened under every president most likely since 1776, its fucked up yes but the government is not just picking people at random to do this to or for their jollies" What standard do you hold our government to? Is anything better than "picking people at random to do this to or for their jollies" to be accepted? In this case the case against Arar was so thin as to be almost nonexistent according to the commission's report, and yet he was tortured for ten months in a foreign country without recourse to any legal system.
12/26/06 11:54 PM
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Souljacker
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Edited: 26-Dec-06 11:56 PM
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"But the CIA being the CIA and the FBI being the FBI they seem to make quite a few mistakes. When they do they should at least compensate them. " completely agree, except that they make quite a few mistakes, for all they do, they make very few mistakes
12/26/06 11:55 PM
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hubris
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Edited: 26-Dec-06
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ttt
12/26/06 11:55 PM
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Yougottawanna
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Edited: 26-Dec-06 11:55 PM
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double post

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