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Weapons UnderGround >> Ordered Suarez+Dog Brothers DVD


12/28/06 10:22 AM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 28-Dec-06
Member Since: 09/17/2000
Posts: 285
 
... And when it arrives, I'll watch it, and post my review here! I don't train in firearms or weapons. Carry a 3.5" Gerber pocket clipped fold out every day which I use at work to open boxes and the rest of the time day dream about using the knife deftly in a self defense situation. Have combined 20 yrs as wrestler/judo/bjj guy but more importantly a concerned married man with 2 little kids. I did some stick, knife and have ASP baton certification but that was years ago. I will try to give a gut level review. Not sure I can speak on it at a technical level. My current favorite quote: "I don't get angry. I get stabby." - Fat Tony, the Simpsons
12/29/06 2:36 PM
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krept
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Edited: 29-Dec-06
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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Definitely looking forward for a review. I've been a member on Gabe's forum for a while, some solid, cutting edge stuff going on as far as integrating firearms over there. Great to see the two working together. The preview vid Gabe had on his site looked great.
12/29/06 7:34 PM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 29-Dec-06
Member Since: 09/17/2000
Posts: 289
Thanks krept. Not sure when I can expect the DVD. Maybe late next week? Will definitely post my review!
1/3/07 1:01 PM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 03-Jan-07
Member Since: 09/17/2000
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LOL. You can't make this shit up. So I have just rec'd the 3 DVD set here at my office. I go to open with my serrated Gerber clip knife and totally hack my thumb. Hilarious considering the video's title is "Intro to the interface of gun, knife and empty hand..." Maybe weapon safety is where I should actually start? Anyway I'll watch tonight/tomorrow morning and post my from-the-hip review of it here.
1/3/07 2:56 PM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 03-Jan-07 02:57 PM
Member Since: 09/17/2000
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[edited to help with post formatting] OK so I couldn't wait. =) Here is my review of Disk 1. Sorry if the post gets formatted weird when I hit "add message". Just finished Disk 1. Not sure what Disk 2 and Disk 3 are going to be, but this one was a lot of verbal instruction on basically one major point: Get outside angle, or "false lead", both it seems physically and psychologically! Individual concepts/points I liked (most with time it occured on disk 1) 1."Reactive State" idea. That the distance of zero to 6 ft is a kill zone if one is in reactive state only. Respect for space - and the confrontation about that - should happen WAY before zero to 6. 2. "Nike Defense" 20:09 3. uy with pony tail mirrors movement in background 29:01 4. workin' da bitch slap 30:06 5. "he is the turd, I am the smell" 31:57 6. authoratative stance 34:08 7. "rectral cranial interface" 51:07 8. St.Foom, or rather : S.t.F.o.o.m 54:30 9. "limb articulation" to get to weapon 1:04:55 10. centerline body carry 1:10:00 11. "problem #1" ... "access weapon via combatives" 1:14:23 12. how do people train on the range? 1:15:25 13. when training the motions : "be a true opponent" 1:33:12 I liked the sudden shock value photos of real world violent encounter injuries too. When I watch disks 2 and 3, more review then! Thx, jeeperpete
1/4/07 12:42 PM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 04-Jan-07
Member Since: 09/17/2000
Posts: 296
Disk 2 review: This DVD was all about the Dog Catcher concept and after demonstrating it, they showed many different live-speed senario based exercises. Concepts from Disk 2 that I liked, absorbed, or thought were just plain humorous: 1. Head position = centerline. For driving, angle + driving 2. (cont'ing on point #1) ...2 on 1 = getting hit in face with opp's off hand? answer: weapon armed opponent's free arm is neutralized by head drive 3. @ 22:10 min funny comment about facing guy who thinks you F'd his wife (and could you de escalate?) 4. @ 42:16 discussion of how at 0 ft range the gun is not a projectile weapon, it is a "bullet injector" 5. 1:11:30 min : discussion of aggression + forward pressure The dog catcher concept sunk in very well with me personally. As soon as I finished Disk 2 I found myself during the day visualizing and trying the body mechanics of 'false lead' step + pikiti hand + low line hand and then steping the diamond to drive the head. In short, good shit. Review of Disk 3 next.
1/4/07 12:52 PM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 04-Jan-07
Member Since: 09/17/2000
Posts: 297
Disk 3 review: Disk 3 is the "extra's DVD" and has 11 extra items. At first I didn't notice the "Fights" item of the 11, until I ran my mouse arrow over it at the top of the home menu graphic. Extras are video interviews, concept reviews/discussion, and fight footage: Fights Gabe Suarez New Paradigm The Protector The Nature of the Knife Thou Shalt Not Murder Crafty Dog On Learning the DC Higher Conciousness The Unorganized Militia Crafty in Action In "The Protector" Mr.Suarez discusses a gun fight he was in outside a 7-11. Amazing - but before and after the story, both instructors touch on the psychology aspects. I'm glad they put Disk 3 into the DVD package. Not sure it was critical per se to seeing and taking something from core message and concept from Disk1 and Disk2, but for the money I paid - gives me more info, more footage and adds to value.
1/4/07 9:13 PM
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krept
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Edited: 04-Jan-07
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awesome, thanks for the review. I've heard some good stuff about the Dog Catcher and it's nice to see it's being shared in the open for those who can't make it out there to train. I'll have to check this one out. cheers
1/4/07 9:40 PM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 04-Jan-07
Member Since: 09/17/2000
Posts: 301
krept --- thanks. yah the Dog Cacher seems usable immediately. I've tried dry runs of the motions. I may have a training opportunity Tuesday night, and if it comes up I'll give live runs. Will report back.
1/9/07 12:17 PM
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krept
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Edited: 09-Jan-07
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found this trailer... I think it's the same one: http://www.suarezinternational.com/interfacetrailer.wmv I love the way they train in this.
1/9/07 7:25 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 09-Jan-07
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Woof Krept: Yes, that's our trailer-- also available on our website www.dogbrothers.com along with a higher fidelity version as well. Also note that Gabe and I are doing another joint seminar the end of this month covering the same material in greater depth and more-- including gun FOF training. See http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=931.0 for details. The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog
1/10/07 8:08 AM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 10-Jan-07
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jeeperpete reporting in .... the weapons fight last night was great. my thanks to Gints and all the guys of the Gentlemen's Fight Club here in the SF Bay Area. I fought five matches and at least i felt i got tooled in each one. heh. but the experience is direct and unflinching, even if my left ring finger is pretty F'd up (ha!) ... more detail on my thread "weapons spar on Tue. wish me luck". Did i try to use the Dog Catcher? yes! Did i aggress, use false lead footwork, put up strong DC pikiti hands? no, no, and no I learned TONS, and am grateful to the GFC! i look forward to my next chance to battle. thx! jeeperpete
1/16/07 10:34 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 16-Jan-07
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Posted here with the permission of the author: Here are my thoughts after a recent training session: This weekend I finally got the opportunity to train with the concepts and techniques from Crafty and Gabe's "Die Less Often" DVD set. I met with several forum members... for this opportunity. I bought this set when it first came out as I've had great experience with Dog Brothers videos in the past and was intrigued by the idea of integrating these concepts into a weapons context. Coming from a stand up background of western boxing and muay thai, I was initially uneasy about the idea of a right lead stance (I am right handed). My striking experience and footwork matrix is all based out of a standard left lead fighting stance. After some time playing with the kali false lead I realized that my initial unease was a result of my lack of understanding. In down time at work or home I would practice setting the stance and moving around the diamond. It didn't take long to realize that in the KFL I feel like a tremendous amount of energy is built up in my legs and hips, like a spring ready to snap. In the standard left lead I feel very comfortable and neutra but there is no energy stored within the stance. In order to move against a stationary object (the guy brandishing a weapon in front of me) I have to generate all of the forward power from a starting point of zero. In the KFL I feel as if the power is already there, in my hips and legs as a potential energy, like a spring that is ready to be sprung. Against that stationary object I am able to generate a more powerful surge more easily and more quickly. Rather than initiating from zero, I am starting from a mechanical advantage. Sorry for using so many terms from freshman physics but this is the best way for me to describe it. You have to work with the position until you feel this. It's critical for the left shoulder (assuming you are right handed) to be positioned properly to feel the potential energy. After playing with this I think several of the guys felt it too. After working on setting in the KFL we incorporated the brachial stun. This is where the importance of the energy stored in your hips and legs became so apparent. From this position it's very easy and feels natural to spring forward at an angle into the adversary. The power can be delivered through the brachial stun or as a driving force. I found it most useful to drive the adversary and it naturally flows into turning the adversary away so that you can follow up with knees, elbows, make space to deploy your own weapon or just to run away. We only worked from the KFL at very close range. We were using it as a close range "fence" when dealing with an unknown contact or attacker at a few feet distance. Right now this is where I see the greatest utility for the KFL in my counter-offensive (I didn't say defensive) structure. I've "dry fired" this enough that it's now pretty intuitive to get into this stance when in a close range fence. I feel more confident that I can deliver a large amount of forward power very quickly from this stance than I ever did with a left lead. We also introduced the "dog catcher." In this first meeting we only worked against forehand knife attacks. I don't have any background in pekiti tirsia or any other defensive knife structure. With a little practice I found it pretty easy to make the initial pekiti and complementary hand motions. After some live knife attack drills I am very intrigued by where this can go. After feeding forehand strikes we eventually moved to live knife attack drills. The attacker was only moving at 60% and we knew where the attack was coming from but this is only the beginning for us. I had watched the DVD footage of poorly executed techniques (and the resultant deaths) enough beforehand that I tried to avoid making their same mistakes. The DVD shows footage of live drills at the seminar, both of poorly executed and "successfully" executed techniques. This is an excellent feature because you are able to learn from the failure and success of others. In the first few evolutions I felt like I did pretty well with engaging the initial attack. I intercepted the attack without getting cut. I angled away from the attack and milked down to the wrist in order to drive the weapon hand down to the mat in what I called the "baseball bat technique." When I was sufficiently focused on controlling the wrist I found this technique to be successful. After initial success, in a subsequent evolution I lost focus on the wrist and died as a result. I was controlling the weapon arm too high near or above the elbow and took gut and neck shots. This is a lesson I would rather learn on the training mat than on the street. I did this a few times. Some other observations: My background is Brazilian jiu jitsu and grappling. I love a ground fight. BUT when you are in a knife fight DO NOT stick around for a grappling contest. In one of the first evolutions I succeeded in negotiating the attack and got the adversary to his knees and had taken his back. I hadn't gotten control of the knife but I had negotiated the attack and was free behind the adversary. When I saw his back my first gut instinct was to pounce and look for a submission. Bad idea in a knife fight. I had the opportunity to run or draw my own weapon and hesitated for an instant while I thought about a submission attack. BAD IDEA. Run or shoot the fucker. Another lesson I'd rather learn on the mat than on the street. I didn't have that problem again. I made the mental context shift after that first evolution and never had the problem again. I didn't end up dying in that evolution but it was an important reminder. This is a critical point for anyone that has ever competed in martial arts, grappling or MMA. It was first brought home in Southnarc's ECQC. I died several times there because I wanted to fight when I should've just run or shot the fucker. This kind of training is critical to rid yourself of such notions when in a fight with weapons. Another problem that arose a few times was when I would negotiate the initial attack and get the attacker to his knees while retaining control of the wrist. Everything looked pretty good from my position behind him until he would pass the knife to the other hand. When you can't see the knife it's easy to focus so much on the attacking arm that you don't see it when he transfers the knife to the other hand. I cannot allow this to happen. Overall I feel like this was an excellent training session and I am very pleased with this material. I have already incorporated the KFL into my close range fence structure and feel like I have the beginnings of a defensive knife structure. I'm really looking forward to seeing where we can go with this material. Thanks to Crafty and Gabe for sharing.
1/31/07 6:38 PM
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tysaw
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Edited: 31-Jan-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 711
Crafty, I have the DVDs and generally found them excellent. There are a couple points that I would like your insight on. One, I understand the concept of the false lead but I have some doubts that LEOs will take to it...given the interview position that is drilled into them in training. I think it is difficult to break them of that pattern. Could not the DC work from an interview postion/with the lead shoulder cocked to accomplish the same thing? Second, can you expound on the fence...when, where, why you use it? The DVD shows you demonstrating it, but shortly after you make the point your abdomen is wide open for a low line thrust/slash. It seemed to me you taught the tactic then shut it down all in the same segment, which made me wonder "why show it all?". I am a paramedic/SWAT medic and in two instances in my career someone tried to stab me. In both cases it was a "sucker punch" scenario and in both cases I instinctively covered and grabbed a two on one. I received in one instance a minor cut on my hand and forearm. Both scenarios luckily ended without anyone getting seriously hurt but the potential was indeed there. Although this was years ago, before the explosion of knife defense info now available, I basically flinced into a fence then got a death grip on the attacking arm. Do you see the fence as a similar tactic in close quarter? Meaning were you trying to say that sometimes you will put a fence up, then transition to the DC? If NOT, then why fence at all if it will leave you so open to a counter thrust/slash? Do you see my point? NOT criticizing at all, just hoping to pass along some thoughts and get clarification if possible. Thanks.
1/31/07 10:55 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 31-Jan-07
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Woof Tysaw: Thank you for your interest. You ask several questions. Lets take this one first: "One, I understand the concept of the false lead but I have some doubts that LEOs will take to it...given the interview position that is drilled into them in training. I think it is difficult to break them of that pattern. Could not the DC work from an interview postion/with the lead shoulder cocked to accomplish the same thing?" To answer your last question first, IMO the DC does much better from the Kali Fence FI position than the traditional FI position. If someone wants to use the DC from a traditional FI, I think it will be of good service, but the real gusto is when the KF/False Lead is used. Not only do I think the KF good for civilian application, but I think it an excellent FI position to be used in the context of "threat management" techniques-- which are not techniques in the sense that martial arts people think of techniques, but things like having someone extend his arms out and away from his pockets while you talk to them, or having him turn his back to you and then quietly stepping to a different angle etc. I think it very good for retention matters. And I am persuaded by Gabe Suarez that it is very good for ECQ gunfighting. The efficacy of the KF for ECQ gunfighting, I think, is going to be the "sink or swim" of whether LEOs go for the KF or not. Gabe ably speaks for himself, but if you are willing to accept for the moment a second hand description, I would say that one of his key belief is that "stand and deliver" (be it in isoceles or Weaver stance) is a lousy strategy in ECQ gunfighting. He believes that if he had done this in his gunfights, that he would have died. He believes that "getting off the X" while drawing and shooting while running is essential for survival. He believes that the Kali False Lead is far superior to the conventional stances for ECQ gunfights precisely because it preloads its user to get off the X whereas traditional stances simply set up its user to get driven back on his heels by the BG. He tells me that in his previous seminars during the FOF training that no matter how much he told people to get off the X, that they simply tended to move backwards in a straightline and now that he is training people in the Kali False Lead that they naturally do so with little or no prompting. The KFL is now part of his doctrine. Certainly one may shoot from a FL lead stance (I often do) but its real purpose as far as gunfighting goes, is to initiate movement at the appropriate angles (train with Gabe or buy his DVDs if you wish to learn about this) effectively. I think as LEOs experience a day or two of the FOF training progression of his material many of them will change their thinking-- and some will not. This past weekend Gabe and I did another "Die Less Often" seminar. This one had plenty of gun FOF as well as gun-knife FOF. Our tentative title for the DVD coming out of this weekend is "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Fight". Perhaps it will answer some of your questions visually to help you understand my words here :-) Time to put the children to bed-- so I have had only a moment to proof read this, Crafty Dog PS: This point I do not understand at all: "Second, can you expound on the fence...when, where, why you use it? The DVD shows you demonstrating it, but shortly after you make the point your abdomen is wide open for a low line thrust/slash. It seemed to me you taught the tactic then shut it down all in the same segment, which made me wonder "why show it all?". "
2/1/07 1:50 PM
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tysaw
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Edited: 01-Feb-07
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Crafty, thanks for the reply! The second question arises in the section of the DVD where you explain the fence. You showed the hands up/non threatening ready position...then forearms into the chest/neck/bicep area to stop the sucker punch. Shortly after you described how doing this tactic can get you gutted. Later in the DVD, in the scenarios a few of the students seemed to default to this both arms up instead of the DC. You ably critiqued them each time, and had them repeat with the correct DC structure. Is the intent with the KF to use it as a shield or dive (similar to serak silat's entry) to "make the way" or is it primarily a hands up/non aggressive looking but functional platform to launch the DC? Hopefully that made sense? Why I ask this is why could you not just use the DC as default crash of the line, and assume each EQC encounter is an armed one? Also, I absolutely agree that LEO do not move well nor train it enough. They typically move (if at all) in a straight line backward. I have only played with the false lead/shuffling that you use a little bit but it seemed a bit awkward. That certainly could be my advancing years **cough** catching up to me. I feel under sudden extreme pressure it might be difficult to pull off as it is not as natural/intuitive as facing the threat in a FI position (given most people are drilled to fight in classic 1 foot forward, weapon side back, etc.). Keep in mind I am throwing this out for discussion and clarification. I am not intending in any way to be critical of the material. It is EXCELLENT and more important...thought provoking. Your approach, Ray Floro's, Karl Tanswell (STAB), Wetzel's (Red Zone), Blauer, Burton Richardson, etc. have all done a great service to both civilian SD and especially LEO DT programs by attempting to realistically solve the deadly dilemma of facing a blade at EQC. There are useful pieces in all the approaches above, none have all the answers yet but collectively there is fertile material to choose from. Thanks for taking my questions and also thanks for contributing to this area as there are people who go in harms way that need this material.
2/1/07 4:59 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 01-Feb-07
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Woof Tysaw: You write: "or is it (the Kali Fence) primarily a hands up/non aggressive looking but functional platform to launch the DC?" Yes, the KF is a particular example of the fence concept. Its base is a Kali (and Silat) False Lead (KFL) and its hand position as shown on the DVD, is what it is. It is designed both for effective initiation as well as response to the most likely angles of attack. "(C)ould you not just use the DC as default crash of the line, and assume each EQC encounter is an armed one? " EXACTLY THE POINT! The point is that the DC is a very low diagnostic response. If I understand the terms correctly, it is not a true default response, because it does require discerning whether the attack comes from the left or the right-- hence the term "low diagnosis". All one has to do is discern that the attack comes from e.g. the right (our left)-- which is the case 90% of the time-- and roughly if it is high, middle or low. The response is the DC, whether it is EH or knife. As for your doubts about using the KF under pressure, my suggestion is this: Properly trained you will feel it work better both initiation, for ECQ response to attack and for gunfighting. Once you experience this, your body will want to do it of its own accord! I submit that the KF/KFL is an extremely natural position (think of a football halfback making a cut to evade a linebacker)-- as long as you don't try to access it through isoceles, weaver based refelxes, traditional FI position training and things of that sort :-) Let me see if I can get Gabe Suarez speak to the piece of the pie that is his jurisdiction. The Adventure continues, Crafty Dog PS: Tail wags for the kind words.
2/1/07 11:35 PM
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tysaw
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Edited: 01-Feb-07
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Posts: 713
Crafty, thanks. Makes sense now. I just watched the material again and now my addled brain has grasped the concept! Thank you for the time you devoted to explain it. Appreciated.
2/9/07 2:42 PM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 09-Feb-07
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Posts: 367
i'm usin' the Dog Catcher every two weeks at the GFC where we do live sparring. LOVE IT i'm getting outside guy's weapon arm, swinging it up and down but outside of stabbing/hitting me, pusing from their oblique. Shoving guys around from that point. forward motion, always. its going great. "here MFer! eat wall!!" ha ha
2/20/07 12:14 PM
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BJJRulez
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Edited: 20-Feb-07
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t2
5/30/07 7:16 PM
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jeeperpete
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Edited: 30-May-07
Member Since: 09/17/2000
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will be trying dog catcher again tomorrow night at GFC hoping to do lots of shoving *grin* TTT!
7/22/07 8:32 PM
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groundfighter2000
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Edited: 22-Jul-07
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ttt for later reading
10/17/07 7:24 PM
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Crafty Dog
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Edited: 17-Oct-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 455
Woof All: The promo clip for our newest DVD, the second in our "Die Less Often" series, titled "Bringing a Gun to a Knife Attack" is up on our website at www.dogbrothers.com and we are taking pre-orders. Also, I will be returning to Team Ruthless in Manassas, VA for a seminar this coming weekend. See http://dogbrothers.com/article_info.php?articles_id=1 for contact info. The Adventure continues! Crafty Dog

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