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AcademicGround >> Approp. student-teacher relations?


1/3/07 2:16 AM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 03-Jan-07
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Ted Bennett's posts on the "Sites like Ratemyprofessors.com?" actually inspired this thread a little. I once interviewed a TA in a classroom alone at about 9pm at night. (It was for an Interviewing Class). This was over the summer, and the building was pretty much empty at the time. The interview lasted for maybe half an hr; just us alone. Nothing happened, but looking back I could see how that might have looked or aroused suspicion. When I brought an 8 by 10 pic of the TA to the Interviewing Class presentation, the Prof actually asked if the TA knew that I had the pic (The pic was with her wearing MMA gloves and a Ringside hooded sweatshirt. The other interview subject, IFL Fighter Mike Ciesnolevicz, wore a suit and tie in his pic). That same Prof always had her door open when meeting with students during office hours. I wonder just how "friendly" is acceptable- if they are no longer your students are they fair game? But that's a big risk, since as a TA you're far from tenured. I know of one private University in NJ where a Prof married a former student. Could you imagine being 55 years old and having a 5 yr old daughter?!
1/3/07 11:10 PM
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DustDevil
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Edited: 03-Jan-07 11:17 PM
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Good topic Gortiz. I've been an adjunct instructor at the local junior college for the past seven years, and the cardinal rule I live by that was given to me by a mentor is: "Avoid even the appearance of impropriety." Before I have any kind of a meeting/discussion with a female student, I make sure its in circumstances that leave as little room for interpretation by passing observers as "questionable". "I wonder just how "friendly" is acceptable- if they are no longer your students are they fair game?" I won't date students, past or present. To me, dating past students would be too easy to throw into question by others exactly when the relationship may have started...and if you might be dating current students as well, even if there is no evidence to support that assumption. That's just a personal rule of mine, though. I love to teach, and I love working in an academic environment; I wouldn't want to do anything that would put my position in jeapardy. I am also protective of my reputation.
1/4/07 3:31 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 04-Jan-07
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Funny how we were told over and over about not banging our undergrads when we taught as grad students.....and then we found out that one of the big-name academic psychologists in the country, a phenomenally smart and well-liked guy named Yossi Ben-Porath, married a grad student in his program (I think at Kent State) - and get this: not only was she a grad student and he a professor, he was actually *on her dissertation committee.* :-O

I cannot conceive of how he still kept his job - aside from the fact that he brings in probably millions in grant money, of course   :-P

In terms of my experience with being in a vulnerable position, I got weirded out when I went to bars with my fellow grad students and ran into the kids I was teaching. Some of them were freaked out, and one snotty chick actually told me she thought it wasn't right for me to be out at a bar (paragons of moral virtue that teachers are supposed to be, I guess!). Some of them went the other way, though, with girls asking me to dance, girls *and* guys asking if they could buy me a drink, girls asking me if I'd go talk to their shy friend, etc. I turned them all down, of course.

But it got even worse when some of the girls would get really drunk (esp. the ones who were no longer my students and I hadn't seen in 2 years) and then start touching me - e.g., putting an arm around my shoulders or my neck, leaning against me, even slapping my ass. And of course, that was inevitably followed by the drunk college girl's mating call: "God, I am, like, SOOOO drunk right now!" which was often followed by "Can you walk/drive me home?"

*shudder*

And the last one was the worst - this 18 year-old girl got enormously wasted over the course of the 2 hours I was at the bar, and she kept coming by to check on me and talk, then wander off, etc. This girl had a moderately cute face but her rack was so big, I don't understand how she stood upright. So of course, guys were circling her drunk ass like sharks ;-) She eventually followed me into the guys' bathroom, and I had to get her out pronto. Lucky me, she puked all over the floor on her way to the door. I managed to get her out the bathroom, and I half-carried her over to the group of friends she came with.  I noticed she had puke on the teeny-tiny shirt she was wearing (the better to show off her gigantic boobs, of course). I said to her friends, "Make sure you get that shirt off of her, it's dirty." In her drunken haze, she heard me say "Get that shirt off." She then proceeded to pull her top off over her head. And no, she wasn't wearing a bra.

Damn near every guy in the place *ROARED* with approval, and a mob started to surge toward us. I pulled her arms down in front of her, pushed her into her group of friends, and yelled, "Get her the hell out of here!!!!"

I guess it goes without saying that after that I gave up the bar scene :-P I could only imagine someone going to the Dean or department chair and complaining about the psych teacher  who was using his psychology powers and stuff to make girls take off their tops in public. :-PPP

1/7/07 3:14 AM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 07-Jan-07
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DustDevil, do CC's have such a form of tenure? Just curious, because you mentioned being an adjunct for 7 years. Do you get health insurance or any type of benefit? If so, I'd consider teaching at one in the future. "I could only imagine someone going to the Dean or department chair and complaining about the psych teacher who was using his psychology powers and stuff to make girls take off their tops in public. :-PPP" So you're admitting that you somehow instantly hypnotized her into taking her shirt off?
1/7/07 1:11 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 07-Jan-07
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So you're admitting that you somehow instantly hypnotized her into taking her shirt off?

Dude - if you think it's bad when the average person runs into a black belt of some martial art and automatically assumes they can do all kinds of superhuman stuff, it's *10x* as bad if you're a psychologist or psychiatrist. People instantly assume you can read minds, manipulate people to do whatever you want, and yes, even hypnotize people :-P

Man, would it be nice to have all those powers that people *think* I have :-)))

1/7/07 2:54 PM
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DustDevil
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Edited: 07-Jan-07
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Gortiz, No, there is no tenure here for adjuncts. We are "hired" on a per-semester basis as part-timers, and no, there are no benefits. I'm just really entrenched into the department, and the relationships I have with the tenured professors and the department chair are my "job security". That's why I mentioned being protective of my reputation...as an adjunct they can pull the plug on me at any time. With the gig being part time, and there being no bennies, it's obviously not my main source of income. But, I absolutely love to teach, and it doesn't take much time away from my main business, so I do it on the side and have a lot of fun with it.
1/8/07 11:47 AM
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likahn
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Edited: 08-Jan-07
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i'm a prof at a school with some amazing looking women and it can be tough. from my experience i have known quite a few other profs from when i was in undergrad who dated students, as long as they were not in any of the profs classes. i've been asked out on dates by some of my older students, but have always declined...that's asking for trouble. but if i taught english and met an older undergrad/grad student who was a chem major i don't think it'd be a big deal as long as she wasn't in any of my classes. i knew a girl who was a phd student and started banging an editor of a prestigious publication and guess where whe just happened to get her first article published? now that is very questionable and raised a lot of questions.
1/9/07 9:58 PM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 09-Jan-07
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DustDevil, thanks for the response. So there is such a thing as tenure in CC's. "i knew a girl who was a phd student and started banging an editor of a prestigious publication and guess where whe just happened to get her first article published? now that is very questionable and raised a lot of questions." Yeah, I'm afraid to even raise questions- even with just regular friendships. I hugged a female professor that I hadn't seen in a while, actually asked if I could before doing so. (She was my favorite, and one of the best people I've ever met.) I could see how someone who was in her former department (we were both no longer at the same Univ.) would wonder if something was up.
1/13/07 1:09 AM
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Kneeblock
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Edited: 13-Jan-07
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Check out this debacle I'm grappling with: I'm the coordinator of a GED Program for out of school youth 17-21. My predecessor left in a huff after getting into one unfounded (my editorializing) disagreement after another with her direct supervisor. Come to find out this past Monday that she (my predecessor), a hot 30 year old who I used to ogle all day when I worked under her, was and is banging one of the students in the GED program!!! The kid is 20 so it's legal and she doesn't work at the program anymore so there's no professional consequences, but it makes me want to puke. Mostly because she's hot, I think. Still, I'm dying to tell my boss, but won't because I'm no snitch, there's no point and because I don't want any of my colleagues put in the uncomfortable "how long did you know/why didn't you say anything" position. What boggles my mind is how an attractive 30 year old educated professional woman could possibly think this 20 year old kid who JUST got his GED, has no job and barely has his life together has anything to offer. When I brought this up to a co-worker she explained it by saying she just "fell for his game." Between this and the hot blond teachers who have made recent headlines, I wish I could de-age myself to my teen years as modern women seem to have a predilection toward young'uns. -knee
1/13/07 2:55 AM
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DustDevil
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Edited: 13-Jan-07
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"So there is such a thing as tenure in CC's." Yup! "What boggles my mind is how an attractive 30 year old educated professional woman could possibly think this 20 year old kid who JUST got his GED, has no job and barely has his life together has anything to offer" It's all about the power-seeking on her part. She's got a literal slave to help feed her narcissism. That's the attraction.
1/14/07 12:57 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 14-Jan-07
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Sounds possible ^^^^^

Without knowing her history, it could be a couple of things - if she's really immature, she may be threatened by older guys. Likewise, if she's afraid of getting older, this may make her "feel young." If she's an "ugly duckling" (e.g., was nasty as a teenager but blossomed into a hottie), this is her way of making up for lost time and all the hot guys back in her teens who wouldn't give her the time of day. If she was a raging hottie as a teenager, then she may want to hook up with young hot guys now (dunno if the kid in question is such) as a way of holding on to her "glory days." If she's a bigtime bleeding heart, maybe she thinks she can teach/train/mold him into doing something with his life.

Regardless of her reason, it seems very unlikely it would be a socially or emotionally appropriate one....

(Note - I'd likely say the same thing about such a relationship if the genders were reversed).

 

1/14/07 6:10 PM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 14-Jan-07 10:24 PM
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I once asked a well respected professor from a large, well funded university some questions about grading policies (specifically for that school). He commented that there actually are NO DEPARTMENTAL GUIDELINES regarding how the professors grade their classes. So, a prof. could legitimately slide the scale for EACH individual student. However, he might get in trouble if he did something like, halfway through the semester, make an A a 92 and above instead of the 90 and above he set in the class syllabus. Lowering the standards if the prof. saw fit is entirely up to him, even if he wanted to do it for one student but not the other. This prof then went on about how these girls would wear tight outfits and "flash their boobs" at him, flirt, etc. Basically what it came down to: You don't have to go to parties or clubs to get girls, you can just be a professor. But, "You must use your powers, for good and not evil."
1/14/07 9:06 PM
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Ted Bennett
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Yeah, our basic guideline was "Put whatever the hell you want in your syllabus, but then STICK TO IT."

If you wanted to say an A was 98-100, B was 96-97, etc., and students knew it from the get-go, you were free to do it....

1/17/07 11:36 AM
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zealot66
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Edited: 17-Jan-07
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my classics professor used to ask to borrow my ufc tapes. He said not to say anything and that his wife who was also an ancient history professor hated it. Funny shit.
1/18/07 1:33 AM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 18-Jan-07
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^ That right there is grounds for extra credit :0)
2/4/07 3:07 AM
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rkjmd
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Edited: 04-Feb-07
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ttt
2/21/07 2:11 AM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 21-Feb-07
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A few nights ago, I happen to watch a rerun of "Scrubs" where a female doctor accidentally gave a patient an orgasm during a pelvic exam. That reminded me of this experience. While not technically academic, it does fall within "student-teacher" relations. A few nights at a gym I used to train and coach in, I'd give private lessons to this woman who was a stripper and now "drives" for an escort (hah!) service. I'd show her self defense techniques (mostly grappling based, so there was a lot of skin on skin contact), and she'd say throughout the whole time, "Ohhh Yeeah..." or to an onlooker, "Uh, ahh, ohh he's awesome!" She REALLY enjoyed our sessions (Honestly, I taught her self-defense, THAT'S IT). She cranked a double wristlock/ shoulder crank too fast and hard once, which made me scream "AAGHH!" That made her respond, "Uugghh,ahhh, ha ha, oh yeah...." I think it was only after she was done with her "comment" that she put my arm back in a natural position. I showed her how to escape a hair grab or some other situation and turn it into an armlock, and she said, "Oh, Oh, Oh yeah... We're having sex..." I could hardly believe it. She was actually getting off on learning joint manipulation. I'm glad the kids classes were over. Another time I was giving her a self-defense lesson, and in the middle of it, she says, "Glenn, you have to get people in here." (Meaning, I should try to attract more students.) So she takes off her shirt while doing rear waistlock escapes with me. At this point, she is only wearing a sports bra and workout pants. Some guys start looking through the school window at us (actually at HER), and she waves them in. So they come in to get a better view. Later in the lesson (with the guys still watching), she does an over the shoulder throw on me while facing the guys. (Remember, she's wearing a sports bra). They start clapping, but somehow I don't think it was because of her throwing technique. After the lesson, she told me how grateful she was to learn such effective techniques, and offered to do something sexually unnatural to me. Even if I wasn't religious, I'd still believe that some bodily orifices were meant to be "Exit Only". Then there was that time she walked into the gym during my boxing workout, because she owed me $10 extra from the night before. My coach was training me and my friends and training partners were also there working out. I'm hitting the heavybag, wearing 16 oz. gloves. Obviously I can't grab anything, and I'm indisposed hitting the bag (my coach is timing me), so I ask her to put the $10 in my gym bag, which is less than 10 ft. away from here. Instead of doing that, she walks right up to me in front of my coach and shoves the $10 in my pants! What the **** is that, role reversal?! So here's a rhetorical question: If someone is getting sexually aroused by services that I am providing them, does that make me a prostitute?
2/21/07 10:58 AM
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Ted Bennett
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LOL - great story.

I'm pretty sure that doesn't make you a ho legally, but morally it might be a different story :-P

I've had to refer out two therapy cases because they were females who, in the course of short-term therapy, developed crushes on me, which totally interfered with therapy. In long-term therapy that's actually pretty useful to use, but in short-term it's a bad idea.

Once they told me that they only came to sessions because they liked fantasizing about sexual stuff with me and all they wanted to talk about was us getting together (no matter how much I told them it was completely inappropriate), I had an ethical obligation to get them to someone else who could actually help them with their problems. In the same way, if your student *really* needs to know self-defense, she'll learn better with someone who she's not trying to lay ;-)

More seriously, if your student really does that stuff, you would be getting yourself into a vulnerable position - what if you turn down her advances after she has a bad day and she decides to say you harassed, assaulted, or even raped her when you were alone together? Yeah, it's your word against hers and you'd probably win, but the hassle and damage to your name would be rough.

Heck, that's the reason why, after I had a really overt pass made at me by a student, I kept my office door fully open at all times, just so people in adjoining offices could hear us and could testify in court that conversations were innocent.

I know a teacher who resigned after an astonishingly sociopathic chick made pass after pass at him for an entire semester (I was there after some of them, he really was not interested), and then when he took her up on it when the class was over, she turned him down and *immediately* reported him to the Dean and announced she would file a sexual harassment suit. He left rather than deal with it. Scuttlebutt was that she was angry over getting a C in a class he had taught her previously. He was furious he never taped her making her come-ons, as that might have gotten him off. In fact she made sure that when she finally got him, she did it in public (she asked him at a party to do a tequila body shot off her tits when they were alone, then got in front of a group of folks and handed him the shotglass, and when he went to lick the lime off her chest she screamed. Busted :-( 

2/21/07 11:56 AM
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Buddhadev
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Edited: 21-Feb-07
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I hope karma caught up with that cunt.
2/21/07 12:21 PM
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Ted Bennett
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In a way - she married a guy in the experimental psych grad program whose last name was "Roach." She is now the proud owner of a last name that she shares with one of the most reviled creatures on the earth.

As Joe Rogan once observed, sometimes life writes the jokes for you so you don't have to ;-)

2/24/07 2:05 PM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 24-Feb-07
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"I've had to refer out two therapy cases because they were females who, in the course of short-term therapy, developed crushes on me, which totally interfered with therapy. In long-term therapy that's actually pretty useful to use, but in short-term it's a bad idea." I was actually a Psych minor (not that I can remember anything useful, LOL). I do recall taking Abnormal Psychology, and the professor (who was the type of psychologist who could prescribe certain medicines?) gave a figure in lecture about how a very high number of male psychologists/ therapists end up having sex with their patients. It was pretty alarming. I haven't coached or trained at that gym in years, but I doubt she would have file a lawsuit against me, though. She made more money that I did! She also recommended me for a "driver" position for an "entertainment" (hah!) company. MINIMUM pay of $100 an hour, just to drive a girl to a "client". (This is in NJ). Some other stuff I remember her doing: I showed her how to turn a hair grab into a armlock. She said, "This is great! Guys were always grabbing me by my hair!" She once told me how annoyed she was at one "client" who wanted her "to go with him AND his wife." She claimed she wasn't into that. But later, in front of me, our kickboxing coach, and the owner's wife, she said to the kickboxing coach, "Your girlfriend's a virgin, and I'm going to have sex with her before you do. But don't worry- I won't break anything." I showed her some other standing self defense move, and she remarked "WOW! that was great!" then spanked me so hard, I might as well have been Thai kicked in the buttocks. If I didn't see her do it, I would have assumed it was some strong gay guy. One of the funniest episodes was her wanting to open up a massage parlor in the backroom of the gym! Despite the money she brought in, the owner didn't let her because he didn't want to end up having to clean up spilled bodily fluids.
2/27/07 11:17 AM
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Ted Bennett
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Edited: 27-Feb-07
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gave a figure in lecture about how a very high number of male psychologists/ therapists end up having sex with their patients. It was pretty alarming.

That shit is disturbingly common. The numbers on it are fascinating - most of the therapists are in their early 40's, most of the patients are late 20's, etc. You would think that since you are almost guaranteed to lose your license if you're caught banging a patient, most people would avoid it....It's also interesting to me to wonder how that will turn out in 10-20 years, given that s/t incredible like 75% of all students in Ph.D. psychology programs are female, so I gotta wonder if rates will change when the vast majority of therapists are women.

It can be useful to explore that in long-term therapy - e.g., why does the girl feel that way, what does she like/admire about you, why are you different from her past relationships (or not), how are you like her dad (since a therapist is by nature like a father figure) - and by *not* screwing her and teaching her to make good decisions, holding back on initial impulses that may be harmful, etc., you can get past that and actually help them out and help them grow up a bit. 

I had a rather bad problem with that when I worked at an inpatient psychiatric unit for teenagers. They kept guys and girls separate, of course. When I was seeing kids on the girls' unit, some of them were just starting to go psychotic and were obviously really sick, but most were just "problem kids" who had bad tempers, were on drugs, etc. For a *lot* of the girls I saw, I was the first guy who was ever nice to them (most of them had bad or absent dads) who also wasn't faking nice just to bang them. Given that they were all sexually active, of course they acted in the behavior patterns they were used to - i.e., saying things like they wanted to take me into my office, close the door, and do all kinds of stuff. Seeing as how I had zero interest in going to jail for statutory rape ;-)  I had to explain to them how that all worked. Most came to realize the truth of things, although one poor girl really couldn't let go and kept insisting she loved me and would marry me. She actually tracked me down a few weeks after she was released and started hanging around my house....which was 200+ miles from where she lived :-O That was pretty much the worst "patient crush" story I ever had to deal with. Thankfully it was resolved OK, I never came home to any boiled bunny rabbits or some such.

OG titillation note - psychiatric hospital in central Mississippi notwithstanding, you would probably be surprised at how attractive a lot of these girls were. I *never* had thoughts of doing anything with them, but I could see real problems with running into them as adults, esp. if I didn't remember / recognize them....  

2/28/07 4:34 AM
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Revolver of Reason
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Edited: 28-Feb-07 04:36 AM
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"OG titillation note - psychiatric hospital in central Mississippi notwithstanding, you would probably be surprised at how attractive a lot of these girls were." speaking as someone who was in mental hospitals a few times during my teenage years, no, I wouldn't. there were some seriously hot ass girls in there. both when I was under 18 and then when I was in the adult wing with other young adults. I think three things are true - 1. Hot girls tend to be dealing with more adult crap at a young age. 2. If they're hot, and they have a shitbag dad or (especially) foster dad, molestation is probably more likely than with other girls. which of course, understandably, leads to teh crazy. Marilyn Monroe was supposedly molested as a young girl by several of her foster fathers. 3. I wouldn't be surprised if there were two primary groups of anorexic/bulemic girls, formerly heavy ones and hot but not the top ones who got obsessed with being "the prettiest girl in the room". a lot of the hot girls were anorexics who weren't cracked-out, Skelator-level thin yet - they still looked mostly normal.
2/28/07 12:27 PM
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Ted Bennett
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1. Hot girls tend to be dealing with more adult crap at a young age.

2. If they're hot, and they have a shitbag dad or (especially) foster dad, molestation is probably more likely than with other girls.

which of course, understandably, leads to teh crazy.

RoR is correct, sadly :-(

That's why I don't work with kids - the sense of rage I inevitably developed after hearing a young girl tell me about her rape / molestation was just too much. Thankfully, there are people far stronger than me who can handle that and give these kids the care they need.

And as far as eating disorders go, that was actually very rare, at least where I worked in the mid-90's in central MS. Of course, when I was seeing kids at the clinic at Ole Miss, once they hit college age, that kind of thing exploded in frequency. It's actually a fascinating concept - small-town and country kids who don't watch a lot of TV, don't read Teen Beat magazines, etc., don't really know to buy into the whole "skinny" thing....until they get to college and hook up with the city girls who pass that thinking on like the f'in Ebola virus.

3/3/07 2:16 AM
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Gortiz
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Edited: 03-Mar-07
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Speaking of working with kids, some of the stuff the stripper/ escort/ skank did was downright hilarious, but much of it was disgusting. Her 12 yr old son and 8 yr old daughter (both of whom I coached) both knew what she was really like. Her son has called his mother some truly nasty words- the thing is technically the kid was right. And the daughter should have been thinking about kid stuff like Barbie dolls and cartoons, and not have to wonder what people mean when they talk about her mother's impressive oral skills (Hint: I'm not talking about public speaking). Towards the end, I was furious at her, and pray that her daughter doesn't end up like her. Ted, how are you doing italics on this board?

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