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PoliticalGround >> Hamas: Israel exists


1/12/07 2:56 PM
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hubris
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Edited: 12-Jan-07 02:56 PM
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for my friend TexArcher: Pan-Arabism is a movement for unification among the Arab peoples and nations of the Middle East. It is closely connected to Arab nationalism. Pan-Arabism has tended to be secular and often socialist, and has strongly opposed colonialism and Western political involvement in the Arab world. Pan-Arabism is a form of cultural nationalism. ... The Syrian government is, and the former government of Iraq was, led by the Ba'ath Party, which espouses pan-Arabism. The high point of the pan-Arab movement was in the 1960s, when the movement was spearheaded by Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser, but pan-Arabism was strongly hurt by the Arab defeat by Israel in the Six Day War and the inability of pan-Arabist governments to generate economic growth. By the late 1980s, pan-Arabism began to be eclipsed by Islamist ideologies. It continues however, to exert a strong influence and nostalgic influence in Arab print media and intellectual circles, particularly in the Levant.
1/12/07 2:57 PM
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TexArcher
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Edited: 12-Jan-07
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LOL at hubris trying to change directions. Look, the "occupied territories" are occupied because the Arab League and others decided to invade Israel from all sides. It really doesn't matter if you believe it was religious or not. They still did it, and they lost, and if Israel feels the need to set up a buffer zone to protect themselves from several million religious crackpots, they have every right to do so AFTER they've already been invaded, suffered daily rocket attacks, terrorist bombings, etc. I don't see Israel preaching the destruction of any nation on earth, but several nations preach the destruction of Israel on a daily basis and have actually tried to make it happen. This is black and white, people.
1/12/07 2:58 PM
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hubris
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TexArcher: You are a fool, just admit you don't know what the fuck you're talking about right now and save yourself further humiliation and total 0wnage. lol @ six-day war being a holy war...wow
1/12/07 3:04 PM
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kot1k
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Hubris, the only ownage that occurs on your threads is your ass being owned by everyone else. You are like a broken record playing the same shitty tune. You are worse then Bagdad Bob. We know that you are a Hamas and Hezbolah supporter, and that's fine. You have a right to feel which ever way you feel. What is laughable, however, is how you try to moraly justify their actions. Hamas and Hezbolah are terrorist organizations. Their priority is the destruction of Israel, first and foremost; not the establishment of a Palestinian state. Your moral relativism is a joke.
1/12/07 3:06 PM
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hubris
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kot1k: You really need to read what the leader of Hamas Khaled Mashal said. See this is what the topic of this thread is about. You should keep up with current events my friend.
1/12/07 3:07 PM
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ChristianWarrior
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Edited: 12-Jan-07
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'The Hamas leader said he will change the direction and charter of Hamas when the occupation ends.' That is funny since that isn't what Hamas was saying Wednesday. Hamas denied Wednesday that its Damascus-based political chief Khaled Meshal told Reuters in an interview that his group would consider recognizing Israel once a Palestinian state is established. A few month ago Meshal said, "We believe that Israel has no right to exist," Meshel added later in remarks to an Arab audience. "Hamas will never take such a step."
1/12/07 3:08 PM
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hubris
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source?
1/12/07 3:11 PM
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ChristianWarrior
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Edited: 12-Jan-07
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/811997.html
1/12/07 3:12 PM
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Isaac298
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Edited: 12-Jan-07
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Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words. *walks off thread, smokes a fatty*
1/12/07 3:14 PM
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kot1k
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Hubris, I couldn't care less about what he said or will say. I will take notice when Kasaam rockets stop dropping on Sderot and Shin Bet stops intercepting bombers on their way to Tel Aviv. His actions is what I care about, his words, much like yours, are meaningless to me.
1/12/07 3:16 PM
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hubris
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You are distorting facts, that's not what the Harretz said:
Hamas denied Wednesday that its Damascus-based political chief Khaled Meshal told Reuters in an interview that his group would consider recognizing Israel once a Palestinian state is established. (Click here for the full interview) One hour after the Reuters interview was published, the Hamas government spokesman Ghazi Hamad told Haaretz that Meshal said, "Israel exists - and that's a fact." However, Hamad maintained that Meshal did not say anything about recognizing Israel. "There was no change in our stance that Hamas does not recognize Israel," he said. Salah Bardawil, head of Hamas's parliamentary faction, told Haaretz that after checking with Meshal, it seems to be that his words were twisted and distorted. "He didn't speak about any recognition of Israel, only a cease-fire with Israel," Bardawil said. Meshal, who is considered Hamas' main power broker, told Reuters: "Israel is a "reality" and "there will remain a state called Israel, this is a matter of fact." The problem was not Israel's existence but the failure to establish a state for Palestinians, said Meshal, whose party leads the Palestinian government. Formal recognition of Israel could only be considered by Hamas once such a Palestinian state is established, Reuters quoted Meshal as saying.
which is consistent with what Meshal said which is that they will not recognize Israel until there is a Palestinian state and the occupation ends
1/12/07 3:18 PM
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hubris
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Hubris, I couldn't care less about what he said or will say. I will take notice when Kasaam rockets stop dropping on Sderot and Shin Bet stops intercepting bombers on their way to Tel Aviv. His actions is what I care about, his words, much like yours, are meaningless to me. Yes action is what we all care about and we are still waiting for the dismantling of apartheid in the occupied territories. They are waiting for the action of the Israeli forces to leave the occupied territories. Actions speak louder than words, let's see the occupation end.
1/12/07 3:19 PM
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kot1k
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They left Gaza. Then what happened? You are spinning in circles my friend.
1/12/07 3:20 PM
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hubris
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Gaza is but one part of the occupied territories they want an indepedent Palestinian state within the 67 borders, not just Gaza
1/12/07 3:25 PM
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kot1k
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OK, thats all good and well. Have the arabs heard of tit-for-tat? Israel took a major step and left Gaza. What did Hamas do? Started shelling Israel from Gaza. Now tell me, what would possibly encourage Israel to leave the West Bank after that? Seriously. No cu and paste. Your own reasoning. Why would Israel ever give up more territory after what happened with Gaza? Why? I propose that if instead of turing Gaza into more of a shithole then it was before Israel left, if Hamas managed to create some semblance of law and order, curb terrorism, then Israel would be more then willing to negotiate for more territory. Seems like logical conclusion to me, but you no doubt, have different views.
1/12/07 3:25 PM
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ChristianWarrior
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Edited: 12-Jan-07
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Did you even read what you pasted? "Hamas denied Wednesday that its Damascus-based political chief Khaled Meshal told Reuters in an interview that his group would consider recognizing Israel once a Palestinian state is established..... Hamad maintained that Meshal did not say anything about recognizing Israel. "There was no change in our stance that Hamas does not recognize Israel" And there is a link on that article to the direct Meshal quote I posted.
1/12/07 3:28 PM
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hubris
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then Israel would be more then willing to negotiate for more territory. You can't negotiate what doesn't belong to you.
1/12/07 3:29 PM
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hubris
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Hamad maintained that Meshal did not say anything about recognizing Israel. "There was no change in our stance that Hamas does not recognize Israel" The original post never claimed that Meshal had recognized Israel. So really this statement is meaningless because it is making a claim that the original post never did.
1/12/07 3:33 PM
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kot1k
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"You can't negotiate what doesn't belong to you" Sure you can, if it's in your posession. They have had it for 40 years. IT IS THEIRS. Is this the issue? Is this what the Arabs don't get? Are you and yours really that different from the way people in the West think?
1/12/07 3:33 PM
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ChristianWarrior
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At no time has Hamas altered its stance from article 6 in its charter "Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives, properties and rights." Hamas is under the belief that Israel must be replaced with an Islamic state. This is a problem.
1/12/07 3:36 PM
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TexArcher
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Edited: 12-Jan-07
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Poor hubris...
1/12/07 3:37 PM
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hubris
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Sure you can, if it's in your posession. They have had it for 40 years. IT IS THEIRS. It is not theirs, no state in the world recognizes Israeli sovereignty of the occupied territories.
1/12/07 3:38 PM
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ChristianWarrior
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Explain this quote: "We believe that Israel has no right to exist," he added later in remarks to an Arab audience. "Hamas will never take such a step."
1/12/07 3:40 PM
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kot1k
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Tex, it's sad, I know. Hubris: Wait, so it's not in Israel's posession? So what's the problem? If it's not in their posession then they are at '67 borders. Which is it? If it is as you say, and they are occupying the territories, then the teritorries ARE in their posession. If not, what's the problem? 'Splain yourself Lucy!
1/12/07 3:41 PM
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hubris
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"We believe that Israel has no right to exist," he added later in remarks to an Arab audience. "Hamas will never take such a step." Source? the Harretz article you provided does not say that.

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