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PoliticalGround >> Hamas: Israel exists


1/12/07 3:42 PM
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hubris
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Hubris: Wait, so it's not in Israel's posession? So what's the problem? If it's not in their posession then they are at '67 borders. Which is it? because it is still occupied territories. Israel does not own those territories - and no nation on earth including the USA recognizes Israeli ownership of the occupied territories - but they are still occupied. That is the problem.
1/12/07 3:43 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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Hubris is doing a great job of making you slobbering racists look as ignorant as you are. Israel is a criminal, racist entity predicated on the denial of Palestinian statehood. Of course it's all good because they are just filthy muslims, riiiight? Asshats. You love Israel because the media told you to.
1/12/07 3:48 PM
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kot1k
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You are walking in circles again. So does Israel control the territories or not? If they do, then they can negotiate for them because they control them. The legal status is moot. So why would they give them up if the oposing party responds with violence when Israel makes a concession? Mat Pimp, I'm sure you are a welcomed addition to the Hamas political wing. Carry on.
1/12/07 3:49 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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I don't think Hamas takes Serbs, but thanks.
1/12/07 3:52 PM
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TexArcher
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Edited: 12-Jan-07
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"Israel is a criminal, racist entity predicated on the denial of Palestinian statehood." Actually if you replaced "Israel" with "Hamas" and "Palestinian" with "Israeli" you'd be correct.
1/12/07 3:55 PM
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hubris
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You are walking in circles again. So does Israel control the territories or not? If they do, then they can negotiate for them because they control them. The legal status is moot. So why would they give them up if the oposing party responds with violence when Israel makes a concession? They would have to give them up because a) it doesn't belong to them and no one will recognize their owner ship of the occupied territories b) the legitimate resistance will continue until the occupied territories are freed
1/12/07 3:59 PM
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kot1k
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You refuse to answer my questiong with impressive pressistance. I'll try again though, because I think this is theraputic. What is the incentive for Israel to give up an inch of territory after their experience in Gaza?
1/12/07 3:59 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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Hamas is symptomatic of sixty years of abuse at the hands of the Zionist occupation.
1/12/07 4:00 PM
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kot1k
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Mat Pimp, you can play too. Just answer my question and we can all have tea and cookies.
1/12/07 4:02 PM
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TexArcher
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"Hamas is symptomatic of sixty years of abuse at the hands of the Zionist occupation." Please. Then Israel is symptomatic of a millenium of persecution by Arab Muslims. You want to talk about "their land"? Okay, the Jews' claim to the land in question goes back three thousand years before Islam even existed. Now what?
1/12/07 4:02 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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"What is the incentive for Israel to give up an inch of territory after their experience in Gaza?" Historical precedent. Sooner or later, they will lose their American backing, and when they do...say goodbye. Now, here's my question: Other than "might is right" or "Hitler made me do it" what right do a bunch of European Jews have to Palestine?
1/12/07 4:04 PM
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ChristianWarrior
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Edited: 12-Jan-07 04:05 PM
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The Mat Pimp just owned me bad. If anyone looked up Hamas on the internet, he would see they are a group that is the model and ideal of tolerance and acceptance of others. Australia, Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan, the United Kingdom, and the United States, have mistakenly labeled them a terrorist organization and Jordan have mistakenly banned them. They are just misunderstood. They aren't sexist. They allow women and mothers to commit suicide bombings too. They don't discriminate. They will bomb cafe's, restuarants, buses, or trains.
1/12/07 4:07 PM
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ChristianWarrior
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Edited: 12-Jan-07
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Hubris, do you agree with The Mat Pimp that Israel doesn't have a right to exist?
1/12/07 4:08 PM
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hubris
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What is the incentive for Israel to give up an inch of territory after their experience in Gaza? MatPimp is correct, We all know who is at fault here. The legitimate resistance will continue. The incentive is peace and recognition from all of the Arab states of recognition of the Israeli state and it's right to exist as expressed by the Arab league in the Beirut summit of 2002
1/12/07 4:09 PM
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hubris
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Hubris, do you agree with The Mat Pimp that Israel doesn't have a right to exist? Israel has a right to exist. Even Hamas is willing to accept this fact once they get their Palestinian state.
1/12/07 4:10 PM
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kot1k
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Finally, a real answer. My retort would be that, while American support is not infinite, at this point in time it is very real. What is not real or certain or even likely, however, is the islamists conceding peace after Israel returns to the '67 borders. Your question is very good. I think some of it is at the core of this discussion. To answer simply, there are many ways that states are created. Historically it has been done by revolution, conquest and a million other methods. Israel was created from British territory, just like India and Pakistan. It has just as much legitimacy to exist as those nations. The form that it should take is a whole different matter, which is exactly what we are discussing.
1/12/07 4:11 PM
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ChristianWarrior
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yikes. I am done. I feel like I am talking to someone with alzheimers.
1/12/07 4:13 PM
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kot1k
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Note that Hubris can't come up with his own answer and has to resort to piggyback on another response.
1/12/07 4:13 PM
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hubris
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The incentive is final peace for Israel and her Arab neighbours: The Beirut Summit (also known as the Arab Summit Conference) was a March 2002 summit meeting, held in Beirut, Lebanon, between leaders of Arab nations to present plans to defuse the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It became especially noteworthy for the adoption, by the Arab states attending, of a proposal offering a comprehensive peace between the Arab nations and Israel, called the Arab Peace Initiative.
1/12/07 4:14 PM
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hubris
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The Beirut Summit is a declaration from the Arab states that they are willing to recognize Israel, a final peace once the Palestinian issue is solved.
1/12/07 4:16 PM
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kot1k
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There are no guarantees that Israel will have peace at '67 borders, as there was no positive impact from giving up Gaza. I'm starting to think that Hubris is a badly programmed bot, and not an actual person.
1/12/07 4:18 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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If "conquest" is a legitimate way to form a state in this day and age, then we should all acknowledge Hamas and Hezbollah's right to do so, on the backs of the Zionist occupiers if need be. BTW, who sank the USS Liberty and then strafed the survivors? Who stole American nuclear weapons technology? Who gets more foreign aid than all other countries combined? And who thinks artillery barrages on refugee camps is a good way to develop interfaith dialog?
1/12/07 4:20 PM
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The Mat Pimp
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LOL @ the colossal hypocrisy of calling oneself a "Christian Warrior".
1/12/07 4:24 PM
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kot1k
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Did I say conquest? I'm gonna quote myself now: "Israel was created from British territory, just like India and Pakistan. It has just as much legitimacy to exist as those nations. " Are you sure you wanna play that game? Who shells border towns with rockets? Who highjacks airlines, kills senior citizens, executes olympic athletes, suicide bombs pizzarias, nighclubs full of kids, hotels, buses? Who blows up baracks full off US Marines? Who? War's a dirty business. No one here is arguing otherwise, and no one is saying that any side is clean. All I'm saying is that there must be concessions on both ends. Israel took a big one and left Gaza. In return they got shit. Why would they give any more concessions, especially if they are better off then their adversary at the status quo?
1/12/07 4:27 PM
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hubris
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There are no guarantees that Israel will have peace at '67 borders, as there was no positive impact from giving up Gaza. You are asking what incentive Israel has for withdrawing from occupied territories and recognizing a Palestinian state. I gave you a very big one. Israel can finally have peace and normal relations with her Arab neighbours who still do not recognize Israel or her right to exist. That is a big incentive, that is if Israel is interested in peace or it is interested in holding onto the occupied territories.

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