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SBGI >> SBG's views on weapons?


2/3/07 6:49 PM
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originalSEAL
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Edited: 03-Feb-07
Member Since: 06/11/2006
Posts: 229
 
I read an article by Matt Thorn titled "Street vs. Sport", or something to that effect. I was shocked to read his views on Kali, that most of it is ineffective in a real confrontation. I don't think Realfighting.com has ever said a bad word about Kali. I just want some clarification on this matter. One day, I'd like to study stick and knife fighting, but Matt's views gives me pause. Where can one learn good weapon self-defense (w/ and w/o a weapon) in NY, for example?
2/4/07 1:28 PM
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Luis Gutierrez
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Edited: 04-Feb-07 01:29 PM
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The SBGi is not any one individual. If weapon's training is what you are looking for, find someone with experience and some one that you feel has your best interest at hand. That said, everything the SBGi speaks of as functional and performance based intelligent training that goes for the h2h aspects of fighting and defense, so goes and applies to weapons. They are solid concepts, principles and training methods. Matt's personal views give you pause about what all the coaches and instructors worldwide teach in their own gyms? Nah, no way. Your kidding right? Matt was a soldier for some time and grew up with cops as his dad retired as one. Shoot him an e-mail if you wish to speak on this with him. Matt does have and teach a weapons program and has taught it at gyms and seminars through out the world. Some of it is on our Portland Camp DVD. As to firearms, certain guys in the org instruct civilians, LE and military. Each person is the SBGi is just that, their own person so though we share a passion for exploration and innovation with functional teaching and training methods, opinions vary as do what we prefer to teach or not. That said, though we don't put much into styles, we certainly only take from them what proves again and again to work within the realms we train for be it sport, self-defense, physical management/ subject control, weapons or good old fun and fitness. What we do continue to discover again and again is that regardless of names or history, what works is discovered every single time given an open, healthy, pro- active and free environment to research, test and develop them. -Luis
2/4/07 4:31 PM
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originalSEAL
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Edited: 04-Feb-07
Member Since: 06/11/2006
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I apologize. I should've stated my reasonings for weapons training. The only reason I would want to learn knife or stick fighting is for self-defense. Matt made a point in an interview about this. He said he gets questions from inquiries all the time about weapons training. He asks, "Why do you want to learn how to knife fight? You're in a parking lot, some guy pulls a knife, then you pull yours, and you're gonna duel?!?" I said to myself, well maybe the fact that I have a knife will make the other guy think twice and he'll run off. In other words, I wonder if I have a better chance of survivial in a knife/knife fight, as opposed to a empty-hand/knife fight. What about multiple thugs? My motivation is strictly self-defense. I'd rather not carry a knife or a gun, as I'm probably more likely to hurt myself.
2/4/07 4:47 PM
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Matt Thornton
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Edited: 04-Feb-07 04:51 PM
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If the other guy can run off, so can you. Never pull a weapon to scare someone, if it comes out you better intend to use it. Think long and hard before carrying anything. It is a big responsibility. Regards Kali, yes I think the vast majority of what I have seen labeled as FMA is completely absurd. Another in a long line of dead pattern traditional Martial Arts. I was once asked about training in more traditional Martial Arts weapons, and my response was. . . . yes, some people like to practice those things just as some people dig civil war reanactments. It's just not my thing. As far as weapons, if you really do need one then learn to carry, pull and use a solid hand gun. I would personaly suggest DR Middlebrooks Fist Fire system. If you don't feel you need a handgun, then you probably don't need a weapon. Think long and hard about what you are scared of, and why. If you have more detailed questions feel free to e-mail at: straightblastgym@hotmail.com Here is a response I gave recently to a similiar question related to my opinions on RBSD training on another forum. I am not suggesting that you fall into the 'scared and paranoid' basket at all. For all I know you may really need some weapons training? The below post just articulates my overall feelings related to weapons and RBSD traning for the hobbyist, which for me always begin with the question "why", and follow with the statement "consider the stats". See below: Question: "The big disagreement I have is when he said "self defence people are parnoid"... like Matt...ever person in the worl who want to learn SD is Parnoid? I think not... I ve trained with and helped train 100s... hardly met a parnoid person along the way. Thats my experience anyway." Answer: Of course I have never claimed that "every" person who does something like RBSD type training is always anything. That could never be accurate. What I have said is that much of the RBSD movement and culture is based on paranoia, ignorance, and poor training methods. I also find it to often be exploitive of some of the weaker members of our society as a whole. These are just my opinions, and I feel I have very good reasons for drawing these conclusions. Reasons that I have written about in depth in other articles, and places. The short hand version is very simple. I encourage people to be introspective. If someone came to me and said that they were not interested in learning Alive martial arts per se, but where solely interested in "self defense", my first question would always be the same. . ."why?" I find most people are not used to being asked this question, and I believe this is because most of them don't question their own motives past a very superficial level. So after the initial look of "wow, that's a stupid question" I'll get a follow up like, "well I want to be able to defend myself if attacked!". . . . .and my follow up question to this is also always the same. . ."why?". Again, most people find this a strange question, but follow ups include "because I want to live longer", or "I want to go home to my family safely", among others. After getting past this, my response is usually as follows. . . . when was your last medical check up? How is your cholesterol level? What's your diet like? Are you drinking enough water? Do you always wear your seat belt? Do you drink a lot? What is your fat intake like? Do you drive the speed limit? Do you exercise regularly? Factually speaking, all of these things are far more likely to kill you, cause you harm, and shorten your life. All of these things (and many-many more) are literally thousands of times more likely to end your life prematurely, and thousands of times more likely to happen, then the odds of being attacked by an aggressive attacker. Therefore, if an individual is truly sincere in their desire for self preservation, going home safely to their family, etc, then these things. . . taking care of your body, your weight, your diet, your driving habits, your drinking habits, will proceed the need to learn to defend against a knife wielding attacker, or sucker punch. There are of course exceptions to these statistics, particularly with people who have certain types of dangerous jobs, police, military, etc. But those are not the people I am speaking to here. I am talking to the hobbyist. So what that all tells me is that the best possible way to defend yourself and go home safely to your family, is to live like an athlete. . .at least to some 'healthy' degree. If someone does not take care of their body, diet, lifestyle first, then what that tells us is that they either have not thought it out well, which is where a good friend or coach comes in, or they are not really sincere. I often find it's the later. So when someone does not really prioritize the threats, but instead finds their attention and awareness focused on knives, guns, attackers, or aggression, then many times I find this is related more to an adolescent fantasy regarding their image of what masculinity is about, and an overall feeling of insecurity they feel within. Not a sincere desire for "self defense". And the best cure I have ever found for people dealing with these kind of insecurity issues? Some solid, Alive, athletic training. Be it boxing, judo, BJJ, mma, whatever. It helps people like that, and changes them from the inside out. As opposed to the RBSD route, which in my experinces tends to make scared, insecure and paranoid people, more scared, insecure, and paranoid. That's why I prefer the Alive Martial Arts route. www.straightblastgym.com
2/4/07 10:44 PM
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JasonKeaton
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Edited: 04-Feb-07
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I have been mugged several times at gun point. Never shot. Lost about $50 though. Most people do not want to kill you, they wnt some cash. You don't even need martial arts for this. Don't carry a lot of cash. I am not saying this is always the case, just my experience.
2/19/07 11:03 AM
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Taku
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Edited: 19-Feb-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
Posts: 3028
Matt, great answer. I like that...Live like an athlete. Good stuff. TAKU
2/21/07 10:20 AM
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Allinthefootwork
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Edited: 21-Feb-07
Member Since: 11/16/2004
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Do you think this approach applies to other 'combat athletics' which are less street orientated? I'm think about things like fencing, olympic taekwondo, several styles of folk wrestling etc. These have the athleticism and aliveness, but have less immediate self defence applications. Or does it need to have some 'street' applications like boxing or bjj?
2/23/07 2:01 PM
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oldnslow
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Edited: 23-Feb-07
Member Since: 06/10/2002
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Matt's post made some excellent points. The insecurity component is very key. The weapons question is something that pops up in my head from time to time and I had not made the connection to my own feelings of insecurity until now. My internal debate on the subject, and continual refusal to carry, had always been within a moral context. I created a post on this subject in the Weapons forum a couple of years ago, but given the level of discourse here I realize it would have been a better idea to post it in this forum. I'll include it below if anyone wants to comment. Otherwise, thanks for making me think. From "Moral ? from respectful lefty lurker" thread in Weapons Forum: I am an avowed left wing, progressive, former activist, Democrat, pro-choice, pro-gun control, hippie freak who often lurks on this forum and has generally been impressed with the intelligent and insightful postings. I may not have always agreed with everything but for the most part the regulars here put out some good food for thought. As the world gets crazier and the wife and I are thinking about children, I've started to realize that I am severely limiting our personal protection by only relying on my H2H training. Yet the more I ponder handguns I am still hung up on a moral question: By carrying a handgun, would I be creating more opportunities for a person to get shot than if I did not? For those of you who do carry, do you feel like you would have to present your weapon even if confronted by someone not displaying one of their own? My concern would be getting in a confrontation with an unarmed assailant, but because I have a deadly weapon on me I could not risk engaging that person H2H, because if I lost, my weapon could be taken and used against me and others. Now I am forced to draw on and potentially shoot that assailant more to protect the weapon than anything else. Am I over-thinking this? This is more a question for civilian carriers than LEOs as the confrontational nature of their jobs makes a firearm a necessary tool, but I would like to hear from all. I am not trolling and not looking to start a debate on gun control laws. This is more of a moral question from someone that has opposed the carrying of handguns but is now struggling with wanting to protect his family.
3/11/07 11:22 AM
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zen writer
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Edited: 11-Mar-07
Member Since: 01/01/2001
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The "why" question is probably the must understated question in all of martial arts. My old trainer runs a martial arts school that teaches savate, BJJ and an old school karate program. He always asks potential new people "why" they want to train. He does it for the same reason that was stated in the thread: to get them off the fantasy land kick of becoming superman and allowing them to admit outloud to themselves that they are should be training for health and hobby. Usually, he can get people who want to train for "the street" to admit that such a mentality is almost always unhealthy. While I hate to rag on JKD, the decided lack of "why" questioning is the root of all evil. (I'm using JKD as an example because it is the art mostly everyone here is familiar with) For example, "why" do "you" want to be a certified instructor? This is an important question because the entirety of the program centers on becoming an instructor yet virtually NO ONE who enters into the program initially did so to become an instructor! Almost all of them started because of curiousity to learn Bruce lee's art or to learn a more realistic system of defense. at some point, they became indoctrinated into the belief that they need enter an instructor program and they swallow such indoctrination almost immediately....yet they have no interest in ever teaching!!!!! The question is WHY? Because of such a decided lack of question "why" in the above scenario, JKD has gotten so far off track it has become very unfocused and directionless. A few other "whys:" Why do you believe that there is such a need to learn how to deal with streetfighting? Where is the streetfighting menace that is lurking around every bush and dark alley looking to assault you? Most people, when pressed, will usually respond in such a manner that they are realy concerned with violent crime. However, how many violent criminals assault people with a jab cross in order to initiate a mugging? This is NOT how most violent crimes start! So, "why" is streetfighting the equivalent of violent crime? Because such a theory was indoctrinated into the mind of the practitioner through videos, dvds, books and seminars that defined violent crime as being something initiated from a boxing or kickboxing stance. "Why" do people not seek thrid party verification from credible sources such as the FBI or police before believing that such a 'streetfighting' menace really does not exist to the degree as has been presented in JKD for decades? "Why" do people believe in the existence of a revolutionary, destabilizing force of rampaging streetfighters when if one LOOKS TO WITNESS A STREETFIGHT over a period of five years in a major city such as New York, chicago, Los Angeles, et al, there is a very strong possibility that YOU MAY NEVER, EVER ACTUALLY SEE A STREETFIGHT OCCUR MUCH LESS BE A VICTIM OF ONE. Again, asking "why" can literally eviserate much of what is taught in martial arts.

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