David Jacobs' BJJGround 25 year old student sexing 16 year old student

7/7/19 4:22 AM
2/15/14
Posts: 635
misterw -

The issue with medical doctors and psychiatrists is that they have the ability to prescribe powerful drugs to their patients and a  conflict of interest there could conceivably be dangerous.   A jitsu instructor is not in the same class as that.  I'm not sure why dating a jiu jitsu instructor would be any more questionable than dating your piano teacher, electrician, or somebody you buy insurance from.  

Have you been or interacted with some students at BJJ schools? They idolize the instructors so much that the hold many BJJ instructors have over their students is so strong is much stronger than any hold a doctor has on their patients

Edited: 7/7/19 2:18 PM
5/27/09
Posts: 352
edit
7/7/19 8:09 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 19402
Calhoon -
m.g -
Principal Andy - 

The key point here is that there is a significant age difference for that point in the girl’s life and the guy was also her instructor. Both within the general teaching ranks and the martial arts world there is a moral code that frowns upon this situation. School owners and instructors should be held to a higher standard.  If one’s personal sensibilities don’t align with these beliefs, then I wouldn’t want you as my instructor, teammate, or my teaching my kid. If you don’t care about such things, then that’s your choice. I respect OP for living his life by a code. Respect.


AMEN!

Two lines have been crossed in my opinion.... ethical lines...

The first line is a social barrier. I personally don't think someone in their mid to late 20s should seek out teenagers to date or hook up with. There are sick social reason why a college age person would rather date a sophomore/junior in high school instead of someone his or her own age. There is something wrong with this picture.

The second line is a professional barrier. A Bjj instructor should NOT date his or her students. Doctors don't date their patients. Psychiatrist don't date their patients. Lawyers don't date their clients. Bjj instructors shouldn't date their students.

The regulators are stupid imo. They have no good reason imo to stop a consensual relationship between a patient and a doctor.

OT but your judgement is impaired. For the most part, doctors don't treat family (except for trivial things) or friends either.

 

I know many many doctors, and tarts the prevailing opinion. Regulators and administrators have nothing to do with it.

7/7/19 9:15 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 7153
asdf -
Calhoon -
m.g -
Principal Andy - 

The key point here is that there is a significant age difference for that point in the girl’s life and the guy was also her instructor. Both within the general teaching ranks and the martial arts world there is a moral code that frowns upon this situation. School owners and instructors should be held to a higher standard.  If one’s personal sensibilities don’t align with these beliefs, then I wouldn’t want you as my instructor, teammate, or my teaching my kid. If you don’t care about such things, then that’s your choice. I respect OP for living his life by a code. Respect.


AMEN!

Two lines have been crossed in my opinion.... ethical lines...

The first line is a social barrier. I personally don't think someone in their mid to late 20s should seek out teenagers to date or hook up with. There are sick social reason why a college age person would rather date a sophomore/junior in high school instead of someone his or her own age. There is something wrong with this picture.

The second line is a professional barrier. A Bjj instructor should NOT date his or her students. Doctors don't date their patients. Psychiatrist don't date their patients. Lawyers don't date their clients. Bjj instructors shouldn't date their students.

The regulators are stupid imo. They have no good reason imo to stop a consensual relationship between a patient and a doctor.

OT but your judgement is impaired. For the most part, doctors don't treat family (except for trivial things) or friends either.

 

I know many many doctors, and tarts the prevailing opinion. Regulators and administrators have nothing to do with it.

You’re talking about something entirely different than I am. You are talking about a doctors choice and I am talking about what the medical board enforces. The two are completely separate. 

7/7/19 10:51 PM
2/1/08
Posts: 1609
mideastgrappler -
misterw -

The issue with medical doctors and psychiatrists is that they have the ability to prescribe powerful drugs to their patients and a  conflict of interest there could conceivably be dangerous.   A jitsu instructor is not in the same class as that.  I'm not sure why dating a jiu jitsu instructor would be any more questionable than dating your piano teacher, electrician, or somebody you buy insurance from.  

Have you been or interacted with some students at BJJ schools? They idolize the instructors so much that the hold many BJJ instructors have over their students is so strong is much stronger than any hold a doctor has on their patients

Is it wrong for a musician to have a relationship with someone who loves their music?  Is it wrong for an author to sleep with someone who thinks their writing is amazing?  I don't idolization is the issue. 

7/8/19 4:23 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8542
Setree - 
m.g -
misterw - 

relationship sounds weird.  but there is a long list of things that seem more worthy of one's outrage, especially if you don't even know either of the people involved at any kind of personal level.  is that the only reason you left the gym?  and how much does one need to monitor an instructor's moral choices off the mat in order to learn to strangle people from him?  if your instructor cheated on his wife, would you leave?  on his taxes?  what if his political views are 180 degrees from yours?  where does one draw the line? 


A person who cheats on their spouse or taxes has questionable morals and ethics. If he or she is willing to cheat on their spouse or taxes what about you? Can you really trust such a person?

No... I wouldn't associate or do any business with someone who is a liar, cheater, thief...

Taxation is theft.  I can’t expect you to be honest with your abuser.

 

Your, spouse, on the other hand is your sacred partner.  If you can’t trust your spouse, who can you trust?  But sometimes your spouse is your abuser.  It’s pretty difficult for any of us to understand relationships we aren’t involved in.

 

Most every day dealings don’t require that kind of trust and faithfulness, and somebody who is a rule follower isn’t nessisarly more faithful to me than somebody who isn’t.

 

That said, it would be pretty difficult for me to have a BJJ mentor that I couldn’t respect in all areas of their life.


Amen!
7/9/19 4:31 AM
2/27/08
Posts: 1539
If only other bjj threads had this much posting effort and analysis.
7/9/19 5:52 AM
7/25/13
Posts: 10398
I'm the White Dog -
Sometimes my wife lets me porrada -
I'm the White Dog -

Age of consent in your state is 16 so that's that.

If you know the instructor to be a bad apple who preys on young girls, you leave that gym in a heartbeat if the owner is aware and okay with that crap.

If this 25 year old is a solid guy and just happened to hit it off with a younger girl who he can legally date in his state you are the one with the problem for being upset over this.

When I was in my mid to late 20's (25-28) I was a personal trainer at a gym in a state where 16 was the age of consent. The 16-18 high school girl crowd was constantly coming on to the trainers at my gym and so I saw both sides of this. The girls are down and legal, so check your jealously at the door. The question is whether the older guys are causing problems for the company. It was rarely a problem because when given the choice between a college age girl who can stay the night/you can stay the night with and a girl who has to go home to mommy and daddy by 10pm and can't have boys sleeping in her room with her, you choose the girl that comes with fewer burdens. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with dating a girl who is legal.

If the girl is legal then it really is case specific and all you've told of this story is that you're bothered by it so there's really no way to answer your question.

By the tone of your post you seem overly invested in white knighting for this 16 year old who is willing and able to consent to sex with an older guy. If it bothers you leave, but you might be giving up on your gym of 9 years because of an issue you have, not the other parties. If you've been there 9 years and loved it you would have seen other scummy behavior that would have soured you toward the gym by now.

Might want to assess your reaction and see if that isn't the real problem.

It's legal in parts of Mexico to sleep with 12 year old girls. It may be legal but that shit isn't right.

 

16 is way too young for a dude who's closer to 30 than 20. 

My youngest daughter is 16 and I have friends who are 25. Big difference in everything from interests to maturity and I will break arms and legs and fingers and toes if I found out one was creeping with her, regardless of the law.

I told you recently on the phone about the time the girl lied to me about her age and the shit it almost caused. I avoided young girls like the plague in my later teens and early 20s and for good reason.

Only going to respond to you because it's you. The projections and reaction formations from so many others are just too much for me to want to deal with, but with you it's different so here goes.

A 16 year old girl is not a 12 year old girl. That analogy was bat shit brother, it just was. No one is talking about a 12 year old girl here.

If he's closer to 30 then she's closer to 20-you don't get to round up one of them and not the other so that doesn't work either, unless you're cool making this about a 30 year old and a 20 year old and if that's a problem for you then my sexual history will end our friendship.

Your daughter... your daughter, is 16. That is not what is being talked about here. No fucking way in hell I'm letting my daughter at 16 date a 25 year old unless I know the guy like the back of my hand and know him to be solid af... even then I'm wondering why he can't find an older girl. But that is not what is being talked about here. OP is just a student at a school where he claims this is going on even though it's supposed to be a secret that OP somehow found out about... hmmm... so OP is probably full of shit but it's still worth talking about, however, we are not talking about anyone's daughter, that's just drama queen nonsense. If her parents are so out of it they don't know about this or don't care, then I as not her parent don't care either since it's none of my fucking business.

The girl that lied to you about her age was not legal in that state... so again, not even close to the same situation as the OP. The girl in the OP is LEGAL... and not 12 but 16. Yes, two years younger than most states allow but legal all the same. Fucking a 16 year old in an 18 and over consent state is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO, it just is because the psychological profile of a guy willing to risk prison time and lifelong sex offender status for a piece of ass is a really bad profile... like rapist bad. This 25 year old does not fit that profile and almost certainly only wants it kept a secret because of the possible overly dramatic emotional reactions he might see as a result... like in this thread for instance. The girl who lied to you about her age was not traumatized by the experience she wanted to have, but you were to an extent as you should have been because it was prison time you were looking at, so you don't fit that profile. And neither does this 25 year old.

All we are talking about here is the OP-and just for the record, state legislatures decide who is an "authority figure" and bjj instructors ain't on that list. Not even sure doctors are but maybe. Step parents, school teachers, etc, yes, but not bjj instructors for fuck sake.

The only see black/white holier than though crowd are ALWAYS the ones who barf out projections and reaction formations ad nauseum... and it is disturbing to me to see another mental health professional in this thread doing that exact thing because of all fucking people he should know better and have enough self-awareness to catch it before he posts it for fuck sake.

If you think 25 and 16 in a state where 16 is legal-and the 16 is not your damn daughter (you couldn't get me to fuck a friend's 16 year old daughter if you put a gun to my head-that is another COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO) then you don't want to be friends with me. Only reason I didn't bang a 16 year old who would not stop coming onto me when I was 28 and living in Nevada was because I was with Carrie and she is so fucking hot no other woman could even interest me. If I'm single... I probably hit that.

Love you brother but I think you're being overly emotional and making subjective analogies that don't exist here.

The 16 year old is down, she is not  your daughter, the OP has trained at this gym for 7 fucking years and loves his gym so the 25 year old is not preying on young girls or OP would have seen other such behavior. He just hit it off with this girl he trains with and she's legal so that's fucking that.

If I"m OP I wonder why 25 year old is willing to deal with the constraints of dating a girl who still lives with her parents but other than that it's none of my fucking business.

Edit: Saw the missed call. Will call you tomorrow brother.

No need to falsely equate unethical with illegal. You can be a scumbag and still be within the law.

7/9/19 8:38 AM
6/30/07
Posts: 55182
I'm the White Dog -
Sometimes my wife lets me porrada -
I'm the White Dog -

Age of consent in your state is 16 so that's that.

If you know the instructor to be a bad apple who preys on young girls, you leave that gym in a heartbeat if the owner is aware and okay with that crap.

If this 25 year old is a solid guy and just happened to hit it off with a younger girl who he can legally date in his state you are the one with the problem for being upset over this.

When I was in my mid to late 20's (25-28) I was a personal trainer at a gym in a state where 16 was the age of consent. The 16-18 high school girl crowd was constantly coming on to the trainers at my gym and so I saw both sides of this. The girls are down and legal, so check your jealously at the door. The question is whether the older guys are causing problems for the company. It was rarely a problem because when given the choice between a college age girl who can stay the night/you can stay the night with and a girl who has to go home to mommy and daddy by 10pm and can't have boys sleeping in her room with her, you choose the girl that comes with fewer burdens. But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with dating a girl who is legal.

If the girl is legal then it really is case specific and all you've told of this story is that you're bothered by it so there's really no way to answer your question.

By the tone of your post you seem overly invested in white knighting for this 16 year old who is willing and able to consent to sex with an older guy. If it bothers you leave, but you might be giving up on your gym of 9 years because of an issue you have, not the other parties. If you've been there 9 years and loved it you would have seen other scummy behavior that would have soured you toward the gym by now.

Might want to assess your reaction and see if that isn't the real problem.

It's legal in parts of Mexico to sleep with 12 year old girls. It may be legal but that shit isn't right.

 

16 is way too young for a dude who's closer to 30 than 20. 

My youngest daughter is 16 and I have friends who are 25. Big difference in everything from interests to maturity and I will break arms and legs and fingers and toes if I found out one was creeping with her, regardless of the law.

I told you recently on the phone about the time the girl lied to me about her age and the shit it almost caused. I avoided young girls like the plague in my later teens and early 20s and for good reason.

Only going to respond to you because it's you. The projections and reaction formations from so many others are just too much for me to want to deal with, but with you it's different so here goes.

A 16 year old girl is not a 12 year old girl. That analogy was bat shit brother, it just was. No one is talking about a 12 year old girl here.

If he's closer to 30 then she's closer to 20-you don't get to round up one of them and not the other so that doesn't work either, unless you're cool making this about a 30 year old and a 20 year old and if that's a problem for you then my sexual history will end our friendship.

Your daughter... your daughter, is 16. That is not what is being talked about here. No fucking way in hell I'm letting my daughter at 16 date a 25 year old unless I know the guy like the back of my hand and know him to be solid af... even then I'm wondering why he can't find an older girl. But that is not what is being talked about here. OP is just a student at a school where he claims this is going on even though it's supposed to be a secret that OP somehow found out about... hmmm... so OP is probably full of shit but it's still worth talking about, however, we are not talking about anyone's daughter, that's just drama queen nonsense. If her parents are so out of it they don't know about this or don't care, then I as not her parent don't care either since it's none of my fucking business.

The girl that lied to you about her age was not legal in that state... so again, not even close to the same situation as the OP. The girl in the OP is LEGAL... and not 12 but 16. Yes, two years younger than most states allow but legal all the same. Fucking a 16 year old in an 18 and over consent state is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO, it just is because the psychological profile of a guy willing to risk prison time and lifelong sex offender status for a piece of ass is a really bad profile... like rapist bad. This 25 year old does not fit that profile and almost certainly only wants it kept a secret because of the possible overly dramatic emotional reactions he might see as a result... like in this thread for instance. The girl who lied to you about her age was not traumatized by the experience she wanted to have, but you were to an extent as you should have been because it was prison time you were looking at, so you don't fit that profile. And neither does this 25 year old.

All we are talking about here is the OP-and just for the record, state legislatures decide who is an "authority figure" and bjj instructors ain't on that list. Not even sure doctors are but maybe. Step parents, school teachers, etc, yes, but not bjj instructors for fuck sake.

The only see black/white holier than though crowd are ALWAYS the ones who barf out projections and reaction formations ad nauseum... and it is disturbing to me to see another mental health professional in this thread doing that exact thing because of all fucking people he should know better and have enough self-awareness to catch it before he posts it for fuck sake.

If you think 25 and 16 in a state where 16 is legal-and the 16 is not your damn daughter (you couldn't get me to fuck a friend's 16 year old daughter if you put a gun to my head-that is another COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SCENARIO) then you don't want to be friends with me. Only reason I didn't bang a 16 year old who would not stop coming onto me when I was 28 and living in Nevada was because I was with Carrie and she is so fucking hot no other woman could even interest me. If I'm single... I probably hit that.

Love you brother but I think you're being overly emotional and making subjective analogies that don't exist here.

The 16 year old is down, she is not  your daughter, the OP has trained at this gym for 7 fucking years and loves his gym so the 25 year old is not preying on young girls or OP would have seen other such behavior. He just hit it off with this girl he trains with and she's legal so that's fucking that.

If I"m OP I wonder why 25 year old is willing to deal with the constraints of dating a girl who still lives with her parents but other than that it's none of my fucking business.

Edit: Saw the missed call. Will call you tomorrow brother.

Gross

7/9/19 8:40 AM
5/7/08
Posts: 21806

Still no pics?

7/9/19 3:41 PM
5/30/03
Posts: 41395

So many responses over a fake troll post

7/10/19 8:03 PM
7/26/12
Posts: 2982
The Maestro -

So many responses over a fake troll post

100% true post. This happened and now I haven’t trained in about a month. Just for a clarification- I left the gym because the owner had no problem with the relationship. I have no ties to either party involved other than training 

7/11/19 11:38 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 8547
1chaino - 
The Maestro -

So many responses over a fake troll post

100% true post. This happened and now I haven’t trained in about a month. Just for a clarification- I left the gym because the owner had no problem with the relationship. I have no ties to either party involved other than training 


I think you made the right decision for yourself. What the gym owner allows and approves of in his place has an affect on you. And you shouldn't be in an environment that makes you uncomfortable.

I decided to disassociate myself with my original coach/instructor after finding out he had a history of domestic violence. I made the decision, for myself, to go another direction in regards to training.
7/11/19 12:11 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 24861
checkuroil - 

 Dudes fighting tooth and nail to justify banging  a 16-year-old. Gotta love this place


I clicked on this thread specifically to read the insane justifications people would make for an adult to take advantage of a minor. I knew there would be a few sensible people here and there, but there would also be loads of typical dudes from this forum who have rationalize why it's ok to be a scumbag.
7/11/19 3:18 PM
2/25/12
Posts: 3884

Sounds like your state is a great place to live

7/12/19 12:06 AM
10/8/08
Posts: 1988
what about a couple luring female students for a 3some
7/12/19 7:26 PM
8/28/10
Posts: 12255
RocknRolla - what about a couple luring female students for a 3some

How hold are the students? If well into their 20s and 30s, or possibly even 60 years old, that's pretty hot. 

Is the couple a couple of instructors or just some swingers that attend class and found a few students who were freaks in Vale tudo but prim and proper on the mat?

7/13/19 11:16 AM
10/8/08
Posts: 1992
Sometimes my wife lets me porrada - 
RocknRolla - what about a couple luring female students for a 3some

How hold are the students? If well into their 20s and 30s, or possibly even 60 years old, that's pretty hot. 

Is the couple a couple of instructors or just some swingers that attend class and found a few students who were freaks in Vale tudo but prim and proper on the mat?


just a scenario...if they ask me, i'm down for it
7/13/19 1:16 PM
6/4/02
Posts: 18966

The guys in their 20s going after 16 yr olds are fucking nerds.  They finally feel cool and in a power position. 

7/13/19 11:56 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8548
Rhymenoceros - 
checkuroil - 

 Dudes fighting tooth and nail to justify banging  a 16-year-old. Gotta love this place


I clicked on this thread specifically to read the insane justifications people would make for an adult to take advantage of a minor. I knew there would be a few sensible people here and there, but there would also be loads of typical dudes from this forum who have rationalize why it's ok to be a scumbag.

Yep! This forum is full of sick, psycho, scumbags. Zero morals or ethics.
7/16/19 7:27 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 7607

Isn't it the old school Brazilian way frens?

7/16/19 8:28 AM
12/22/10
Posts: 8502

Definitely an ethical issue.  You go to BJJ much more than you go to a doctor.  I would think a more valid comparison is a BJJ instructor to the student's high school teacher.  Would it be right for the high school teacher to fuck his student?

7/16/19 8:51 AM
2/1/08
Posts: 1614

No.  Your high school teacher has control over grades that affect your future, can punish you for misbehavior, and you can't simply find a different one that suits you better.  A better comparison would be BJJ instructor (someone who is teaching you a skill that take a long time to develop) to musical instructor (someone who is teaching you a skill that takes a long time to develop).  The high school teacher is in far more of a position of authority than the latter two.  

7/16/19 9:35 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 7608
misterw -

No.  Your high school teacher has control over grades that affect your future, can punish you for misbehavior, and you can't simply find a different one that suits you better.  A better comparison would be BJJ instructor (someone who is teaching you a skill that take a long time to develop) to musical instructor (someone who is teaching you a skill that takes a long time to develop).  The high school teacher is in far more of a position of authority than the latter two.  

Or sports coach

7/16/19 10:32 AM
2/1/08
Posts: 1615

Except that w/ sports coaches you are often talking about adults and adolescents.  BJJ you are talking about an adult learning from an adult.  I don't think it is an issue for a BJJ instructor to date a student, any more than it would be for someone to date their piano teacher, they are both consenting adults.  If it becomes a pattern, then it could easily negatively impact the gym's atmosphere, but that is a separate issue than whether one is taking advantage of a supposed position of authority.