David Jacobs' BJJGround Barnett: BJJ=Gi, For No Gi Catch is the Way to Go

9/13/14 8:34 PM
11/23/08
Posts: 330
He sounds like a gracie doesn't he.
9/13/14 8:50 PM
2/28/06
Posts: 5291
Steve_73 - He sounds like a gracie doesn't he.

LOL!
9/13/14 9:34 PM
7/14/08
Posts: 15851
nowaydo - If you know the curriculum in "punishing rides", you'll see Josh displayed it perfectly.

BJJ is so funny. A BJJ player can study wrestling and judo for years, but they are still a BJJ player.

...But, it a Judoka, catchwrestler, shootwrestler, Sambo player or wrestler does BJJ for two weeks, suddenly they are a BJJ player.


So, funny and hypocritical.
The difference being BJJ guys don't become blackbelts in judo and then claim judo is worthless or that Bjj has better throws. Phone Post 3.0
9/16/14 1:34 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 350
Judge Mental - I trained a bit with Josh back in 2000-2002. He was def doing BJJ at the time.

He's full of shit. Phone Post 3.0

You are the one full of shit.

If you were at AMC then you would know for a fact we didn't train BJJ. In fact we prided ourselves in being a non-BJJ school since the BJJ community around us was so derisive and dismissive of us simply because we didn't do it. We were a fight school and we had our own way of doing things that worked well for us...and still does for AMC fighters.

We didn't do Gi. We didn't have BJJ guys teaching. We didn't do BJJ and that includes me.

In that just because you are doing an achilles lock (straight footlock for you BJJ guys) it doesn't make someone a Catch Wrestler the same goes that if you are working from the bottom scissors (Guard) it doesn't make you a BJJ player.

Moves often appear across many combat arts...the body can only move so many different ways. It's application and philosophies in how styles really tend to differ.

 

Josh

9/16/14 1:55 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 351

For any that feel the need to try and discredit me being a Catch Wrestler,

 

If it makes you feel better to say that I do/did/train BJJ and/or that I train under a BJJ coach then go right ahead.

But Catch is not marketing or a gimmick for me. I am a Catch Wrestler. I train under the philosophies and concepts of Catch-As-Catch-Can and apply them to the modern competitive combat environment. No BJJ guy has ever rolled with me and said "That was just  BJJ you used to wrestle me. You do things just like a BJJ guy would." Everyone who has trained with me knows the difference in what I do. No one who has taken my seminars has ever said "We are clearly just doing BJJ here". 

I don't train in BJJ. Paulson doesn't train me in BJJ. Paulson has a background in it but even still, he teaches his own style called Combat Submission Wrestling and a lot of that is still Catch derived.

My lineage is Karl Gotch>Yoshiaki Fujiwara>Minoru Suzuki/Masakatsu Funaki/Pancrase>Matt Hume>Me

Billy Riley>Billy Robinson>Me

Karl Gotch>Satoru Sayama>Yorinaga Nakamura> Erik Paulson

Add in a slew of wrestling coaches, a few Judo coaches and you have where the bulk of my grappling teaching came from.

You can try to say whatever you want in regards to me doing Catch vs BJJ and such but now that you doing so in because you wish to despite proof otherwise.

 

Josh

 

9/16/14 2:06 AM
2/18/03
Posts: 2018
I like what just happened here.


Thanks for taking the time to respond to this nonsense, Josh.
Edited: 9/16/14 2:44 AM
8/25/14
Posts: 9
I consider it that same thing. Like there isn't a curriculum so you can do whatever works. Guess i define myself more as a freestyle ground fighter or grappler. I guess a lot of BJJ is defined by some of the stupid rules, and people trying to make it a limited sport, but i think everything should go from blue belt. Like slicers being illegal.. heh.. fucking lOl

edit; didn't see the comment from jOsh.. may i ask when you´ll be back on JRE:)??
9/16/14 2:54 AM
10/10/10
Posts: 594
Sometimes I love this place
9/16/14 4:43 AM
11/23/08
Posts: 331
Freaken hilarious.

Notice that this is a BJJ forum. You can deny it as much as you want but the proof is right freaken here.

The Gracies also do that lineage stuff.

I like being able to talk trash to Barnett over the Internet as well.
9/16/14 9:41 AM
3/6/12
Posts: 16602
Josh Barnett - 

For any that feel the need to try and discredit me being a Catch Wrestler,

 

If it makes you feel better to say that I do/did/train BJJ and/or that I train under a BJJ coach then go right ahead.

But Catch is not marketing or a gimmick for me. I am a Catch Wrestler. I train under the philosophies and concepts of Catch-As-Catch-Can and apply them to the modern competitive combat environment. No BJJ guy has ever rolled with me and said "That was just  BJJ you used to wrestle me. You do things just like a BJJ guy would." Everyone who has trained with me knows the difference in what I do. No one who has taken my seminars has ever said "We are clearly just doing BJJ here". 

I don't train in BJJ. Paulson doesn't train me in BJJ. Paulson has a background in it but even still, he teaches his own style called Combat Submission Wrestling and a lot of that is still Catch derived.

My lineage is Karl Gotch>Yoshiaki Fujiwara>Minoru Suzuki/Masakatsu Funaki/Pancrase>Matt Hume>Me

Billy Riley>Billy Robinson>Me

Karl Gotch>Satoru Sayama>Yorinaga Nakamura> Erik Paulson

Add in a slew of wrestling coaches, a few Judo coaches and you have where the bulk of my grappling teaching came from.

You can try to say whatever you want in regards to me doing Catch vs BJJ and such but now that you doing so in because you wish to despite proof otherwise.

 

Josh

 


Since you put it that way it makes a lot more sense. In one of my earlier posts I made ref to you crediting Catch because it's your thing, when whatever technique in question might cross over into both BJJ & Catch. So you being a 'Catch guy,' I couldn't blame you for giving Catch the credit. But since you spelled it out with the philosophies and concepts aspects, it makes more sense (to me). I'd be curious to hear some examples of the philosophies and concepts you touched on, if for nothing else, to watch for it when you fight and see how that relates back to BJJ when a Jiu Jitsu player is fighting/using the same technique--like the straight foot lock.

In any case, I think your grappling background has a resume that's far beyond driven & impressive. Thanks for sharing.
9/16/14 10:43 AM
11/10/05
Posts: 4567
Josh Barnett - 

For any that feel the need to try and discredit me being a Catch Wrestler,

 

If it makes you feel better to say that I do/did/train BJJ and/or that I train under a BJJ coach then go right ahead.

But Catch is not marketing or a gimmick for me. I am a Catch Wrestler. I train under the philosophies and concepts of Catch-As-Catch-Can and apply them to the modern competitive combat environment. No BJJ guy has ever rolled with me and said "That was just  BJJ you used to wrestle me. You do things just like a BJJ guy would." Everyone who has trained with me knows the difference in what I do. No one who has taken my seminars has ever said "We are clearly just doing BJJ here". 

I don't train in BJJ. Paulson doesn't train me in BJJ. Paulson has a background in it but even still, he teaches his own style called Combat Submission Wrestling and a lot of that is still Catch derived.

My lineage is Karl Gotch>Yoshiaki Fujiwara>Minoru Suzuki/Masakatsu Funaki/Pancrase>Matt Hume>Me

Billy Riley>Billy Robinson>Me

Karl Gotch>Satoru Sayama>Yorinaga Nakamura> Erik Paulson

Add in a slew of wrestling coaches, a few Judo coaches and you have where the bulk of my grappling teaching came from.

You can try to say whatever you want in regards to me doing Catch vs BJJ and such but now that you doing so in because you wish to despite proof otherwise.

 

Josh

 


So you don't train bjj, but did you train bjj? If you did, what rank did you achieve? I had heard that you were a black belt in bjj. 

 

I am NOT trying to discredit your being a catch wrestler. However, I feel that you try to promote catch at the expense of bjj. I'm of the opinion that you've taken a lot of the philsophy, principles and moves of bjj and integrated them with you catch based submissions.  I don't think that it has to do with any specific move. I think it has to do more with positioning and philosophy as I stated before:

He focused on the pass and maintaining position. Not once did he dive for a foot. He never bailed on top position to go for the neck, etc. To say that he wasn't doing bjj is laughable. How did he suddenly leave all those skills and philosophy at home? As the name implies Catch is about submission with a disregard for the sacrifice in position. He did the opposite of that.

If you disagree with this, then I'd be interested in hearing why? Thanks.

9/16/14 11:11 AM
9/10/12
Posts: 7650

I used to go to all the TOny Cechinne and Matt Fury type seminars back then. Josh you know you didn't just train at AMC, you went to seminars and rolled at other schools too!!

 

I'll just leave it at that.

 

 

9/16/14 11:24 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 352
Judge Mental - 

I used to go to all the TOny Cechinne and Matt Fury type seminars back then. Josh you know you didn't just train at AMC, you went to seminars and rolled at other schools too!!

 

I'll just leave it at that.

 

 


Thad?

 

Only seminar I went to was Erik Paulson's and I only trained at AMC and at one point Maurice Smith's a couple days a week to spar. 

One time I went to Juliano Prado's school to meet him and see if he had any fighters that may want to compete or even himself as I was doing booking for shows. I took his one class and rolled with hima little and then we hung out. Hardly a basis for a BJJ background.

 

Josh

9/16/14 11:39 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 353
Meatgrinder - 
Josh Barnett - 

For any that feel the need to try and discredit me being a Catch Wrestler,

 

If it makes you feel better to say that I do/did/train BJJ and/or that I train under a BJJ coach then go right ahead.

But Catch is not marketing or a gimmick for me. I am a Catch Wrestler. I train under the philosophies and concepts of Catch-As-Catch-Can and apply them to the modern competitive combat environment. No BJJ guy has ever rolled with me and said "That was just  BJJ you used to wrestle me. You do things just like a BJJ guy would." Everyone who has trained with me knows the difference in what I do. No one who has taken my seminars has ever said "We are clearly just doing BJJ here". 

I don't train in BJJ. Paulson doesn't train me in BJJ. Paulson has a background in it but even still, he teaches his own style called Combat Submission Wrestling and a lot of that is still Catch derived.

My lineage is Karl Gotch>Yoshiaki Fujiwara>Minoru Suzuki/Masakatsu Funaki/Pancrase>Matt Hume>Me

Billy Riley>Billy Robinson>Me

Karl Gotch>Satoru Sayama>Yorinaga Nakamura> Erik Paulson

Add in a slew of wrestling coaches, a few Judo coaches and you have where the bulk of my grappling teaching came from.

You can try to say whatever you want in regards to me doing Catch vs BJJ and such but now that you doing so in because you wish to despite proof otherwise.

 

Josh

 


So you don't train bjj, but did you train bjj? If you did, what rank did you achieve? I had heard that you were a black belt in bjj. 

 

I am NOT trying to discredit your being a catch wrestler. However, I feel that you try to promote catch at the expense of bjj. I'm of the opinion that you've taken a lot of the philsophy, principles and moves of bjj and integrated them with you catch based submissions.  I don't think that it has to do with any specific move. I think it has to do more with positioning and philosophy as I stated before:

He focused on the pass and maintaining position. Not once did he dive for a foot. He never bailed on top position to go for the neck, etc. To say that he wasn't doing bjj is laughable. How did he suddenly leave all those skills and philosophy at home? As the name implies Catch is about submission with a disregard for the sacrifice in position. He did the opposite of that.

If you disagree with this, then I'd be interested in hearing why? Thanks.


"I feel that you try to promote Catch at the expense of BJJ."

That's all on you. I always state simply that I am a Catch Wrestler first and foremost and that in my opinion just because you don't do BJJ it doesn't mean you don't know how to grapple. There's no attack on BJJ or any style in that. If anything BJJ is always trying to discredit me and what I say.

As for the techniques I used in Metamoris and philosophies...well with the rule set given I used what was needed. There's only so many ways one can operate. Being a Catch Wrestler doesn't mean diving after a foot all the time or sacrificing position for submission. By your thinking that Catch is about submission with disregard for position I can say you really don't understand what Catch Wrestiling is.

I rode my opponent, attacked his neck with half-nelsons, crossfaces and more all match long. Used cradles, riding pressure with my knees off the mat, kneeled on the neck, ankles, etc. What BJJ curriculum teaches that?

How many ways can one pass a guard? The body only moves so many ways so it's pretty logical that the same method of passing could be done or "invented" by anyone. If I stay in your guard you can try to grab onto me, I can't attack the arms as well and I can't put as much weight on you as I'd like. So, I get past the legs first. BJJ may specialize in this position but it can't claim it entirely as it's own (First time I ever saw it was in Judo in 1993). But when you watch BJJ matches you can see how they employ it or even use it as the main offensive position. I, as a Catch Wrestler, would not do that.

 

Josh

9/16/14 2:57 PM
6/15/07
Posts: 10385
You are a world champion grappler(and fighter)and have just handily beaten the best submission grappler in your class (arguably any class). I don't think anyone can discredit that no matter how hard they try.

When I watch you grapple I don't think CACC or BJJ or whatever, and never did when watching Dean either... nobody can argue about who you say has influenced your evolution; that's all you.

I would think that a coach and partner like Eric Paulson who I believe has mastered BJJ (there are those with far less expirienced calling themselves "professor") has played a major role in your development the last decade and perhaps the evolution of modern CACC. Phone Post 3.0
9/16/14 3:00 PM
2/18/03
Posts: 2019
God I love this thread.

Guys keep trying to come up with some reason to explain their cognitive dissonance over Josh not being a BJJ guy but being really good at submission grappling and he keeps logically and thoroughly disposing of their weak arguments.
9/16/14 3:15 PM
5/18/06
Posts: 5239
It's not CACC unless you are playing for pins.
9/16/14 3:27 PM
5/30/03
Posts: 36164

A lot of similarities from the BJJ community's reactions to Josh as to Hughes when he beat Royce

Edited: 9/16/14 4:36 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 33268

1-I am a Catchwrestler.

2-Josh's point about,  "Being a Catch Wrestler doesn't mean diving after a foot all the time or sacrificing position for submission." is THE point.   THis always comes up on this forum whenever Catch is discussed.   Non-catchwrestler just do not get it.   They love to lob this out, like it is some discussion ender.  THey do not understand the WRESTLING from position to position.

3-PIns shmins.   It is still Catchwrestling without pins.  You want to play for pins fine.  It is still BJJ without the gi, right?  So it is still Catchwrestling without the pins.  Pins end games, not fights.  I have no time to waste on them, not in it for games.  I am happy if you are.

9/16/14 4:59 PM
11/10/05
Posts: 4574
Josh Barnett - 
Meatgrinder - 
Josh Barnett - 

For any that feel the need to try and discredit me being a Catch Wrestler,

 

If it makes you feel better to say that I do/did/train BJJ and/or that I train under a BJJ coach then go right ahead.

But Catch is not marketing or a gimmick for me. I am a Catch Wrestler. I train under the philosophies and concepts of Catch-As-Catch-Can and apply them to the modern competitive combat environment. No BJJ guy has ever rolled with me and said "That was just  BJJ you used to wrestle me. You do things just like a BJJ guy would." Everyone who has trained with me knows the difference in what I do. No one who has taken my seminars has ever said "We are clearly just doing BJJ here". 

I don't train in BJJ. Paulson doesn't train me in BJJ. Paulson has a background in it but even still, he teaches his own style called Combat Submission Wrestling and a lot of that is still Catch derived.

My lineage is Karl Gotch>Yoshiaki Fujiwara>Minoru Suzuki/Masakatsu Funaki/Pancrase>Matt Hume>Me

Billy Riley>Billy Robinson>Me

Karl Gotch>Satoru Sayama>Yorinaga Nakamura> Erik Paulson

Add in a slew of wrestling coaches, a few Judo coaches and you have where the bulk of my grappling teaching came from.

You can try to say whatever you want in regards to me doing Catch vs BJJ and such but now that you doing so in because you wish to despite proof otherwise.

 

Josh

 


So you don't train bjj, but did you train bjj? If you did, what rank did you achieve? I had heard that you were a black belt in bjj. 

 

I am NOT trying to discredit your being a catch wrestler. However, I feel that you try to promote catch at the expense of bjj. I'm of the opinion that you've taken a lot of the philsophy, principles and moves of bjj and integrated them with you catch based submissions.  I don't think that it has to do with any specific move. I think it has to do more with positioning and philosophy as I stated before:

He focused on the pass and maintaining position. Not once did he dive for a foot. He never bailed on top position to go for the neck, etc. To say that he wasn't doing bjj is laughable. How did he suddenly leave all those skills and philosophy at home? As the name implies Catch is about submission with a disregard for the sacrifice in position. He did the opposite of that.

If you disagree with this, then I'd be interested in hearing why? Thanks.


"I feel that you try to promote Catch at the expense of BJJ."

That's all on you. I always state simply that I am a Catch Wrestler first and foremost and that in my opinion just because you don't do BJJ it doesn't mean you don't know how to grapple. There's no attack on BJJ or any style in that. If anything BJJ is always trying to discredit me and what I say.

As for the techniques I used in Metamoris and philosophies...well with the rule set given I used what was needed. There's only so many ways one can operate. Being a Catch Wrestler doesn't mean diving after a foot all the time or sacrificing position for submission. By your thinking that Catch is about submission with disregard for position I can say you really don't understand what Catch Wrestiling is.

I rode my opponent, attacked his neck with half-nelsons, crossfaces and more all match long. Used cradles, riding pressure with my knees off the mat, kneeled on the neck, ankles, etc. What BJJ curriculum teaches that?

How many ways can one pass a guard? The body only moves so many ways so it's pretty logical that the same method of passing could be done or "invented" by anyone. If I stay in your guard you can try to grab onto me, I can't attack the arms as well and I can't put as much weight on you as I'd like. So, I get past the legs first. BJJ may specialize in this position but it can't claim it entirely as it's own (First time I ever saw it was in Judo in 1993). But when you watch BJJ matches you can see how they employ it or even use it as the main offensive position. I, as a Catch Wrestler, would not do that.

 

Josh


I try to look at it from a neutral bystanders view, but you're right. There could be some of my own bias built in...Thanks for the response. It sounds very geniune and candid, but it overlooked my first question and the video I embedded suggests a difference between your bjj exposure (and Paulson's saying that he has a background is a bit of an understatement) and what this video would suggest.

Also, at the end of this interview with Paulson ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6c8qeo36ZA ), he discusses the use of combat type techniques (grinding elbows, etc) relative to how he likes to teach and train. I don't think he himself sees this as some major differentiator in bjj vs catch technique.

I'm wasn't saying that BJJ claims the guard pass as it's own... I felt that your strategy/philosophy of your match was very much bjj as opposed to the philosophy of the very aptly named "catch-as-catch-can". You never went for any foot attacks inside his open guard...never a rolling anaconda, guillotine or anything against the turtle. Nothing that would even risk positional dominance. It was clearly a positional battle until it was totally dominated and then went for a sub. If there were points or advantages being scored, there wouldn't have been any sub attempt advantages.

 

 

 

 

 

9/16/14 5:01 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 5958
Meatgrinder, you said:

" I am NOT trying to discredit your being a catch wrestler. However, I feel that you try to promote catch at the expense of bjj. I'm of the opinion that you've taken a lot of the philsophy, principles and moves of bjj and integrated them with you catch based submissions. I don't think that it has to do with any specific move. I think it has to do more with positioning and philosophy as I stated before"

What about BJJ using many of the principles of Catch Wrestling and Maeda himself incorporating and training in Catch? If we go by a timeline then Catch predates BJJ by some close to 50 years.

The real truth is that many ideas and holds cross disciplines. Phone Post 3.0
9/16/14 5:02 PM
5/12/08
Posts: 943
"I rode my opponent, attacked his neck with half-nelsons, crossfaces and more all match long. Used cradles, riding pressure with my knees off the mat, kneeled on the neck, ankles, etc. What BJJ curriculum teaches that?"

Dave Camarillo teaches all of that in his curriculum, but he's American and has been exposed to a ton of collegiate wrestling. Grappling is grappling. Hope to see you compete more. Phone Post 3.0
9/16/14 5:38 PM
11/10/05
Posts: 4575
Tom Lawlor - Meatgrinder, you said:

" I am NOT trying to discredit your being a catch wrestler. However, I feel that you try to promote catch at the expense of bjj. I'm of the opinion that you've taken a lot of the philsophy, principles and moves of bjj and integrated them with you catch based submissions. I don't think that it has to do with any specific move. I think it has to do more with positioning and philosophy as I stated before"

What about BJJ using many of the principles of Catch Wrestling and Maeda himself incorporating and training in Catch? If we go by a timeline then Catch predates BJJ by some close to 50 years.

The real truth is that many ideas and holds cross disciplines. Phone Post 3.0

Yeah Tom... I don't have all the answers. That's a big part of the value of this forum to me... I don't know the specific timeline differences. I know there is a lot of crossover influence so it is always difficult to say this is bjj, that is catch, this is X, etc. I think there's been some argument of the influences between catch and bjj with catch migrating through Europe. However I think it's pretty accepted that there are at least common roots ... However from what I've read and others have shared, my understanding is that a primary difference was the strategic philosophy of position before submission vs. catch-as-catch-can...whenever you can by using your opponent's reactions against them. I actually thought that that was one of the selling pts of catch from spectator viewing sport due to the action. Now from that understanding and watching the match with Dean.... You tell me.

 

Josh: "I don't train in BJJ. Paulson doesn't train me in BJJ. Paulson has a background in it but even still, he teaches his own style called Combat Submission Wrestling and a lot of that is still Catch derived"

Also maybe saying "discredit" is strong. I recall thinking in past interviews that it was discrediting bjj to promote catch, but at the very least it's continually downplaying his background and influence from bjj...He and Paulson are both BBs in bjj. I mean come on....

9/16/14 8:38 PM
2/28/06
Posts: 5297
Thanks, Josh.

Again, the hypocrisy is insane in some BJJ circles.
9/16/14 9:47 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 1911

bite your tongue