David Jacobs' BJJGround Barnett: BJJ=Gi, For No Gi Catch is the Way to Go

9/16/14 9:58 PM
12/1/00
Posts: 15748
Im still confused- did Catch Wrestling historically have extensive guardwork and guard passing, seeing that you could win from a pin?
9/16/14 10:07 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 1912

Nope.Like judo, It came from the knightly arts of combat where if you were on your back you were stabbed and dead. Things evolve depending on the situation.

9/16/14 10:08 PM
7/27/04
Posts: 15918
Meatgrinder,you think it's legit when someone jumps from whitebelt/blue belt to black belt in bjj?
9/16/14 10:30 PM
11/10/05
Posts: 4584
EKPOGI - Meatgrinder,you think it's legit when someone jumps from whitebelt/blue belt to black belt in bjj?

This and the historical influences between different arts are completely separate arguments... He and Paulson trained bjj and both have BBs in BJJ period... Josh totally skipped over my question on that as if it was overlooked and tried to make Mental sound like a liar. Paulson was a blue for four years training before he even left Rickson's and fighting all over the world. I find it disrespectful to the art of jiu jitsu to try to hide that experience and pretend it's all about catch. 

I'm not being hypocritical or making unfounded statements. I'm also not trying to be antagonistic. I believe I've given reasonable explanation for my viewpoint. I'm just trying to call it like I see it regardless of who it is. 

 

 

 

Edited: 9/16/14 10:58 PM
7/27/04
Posts: 15920

because there's a thread were people are saying one is not a legit bb in bjj since they never went through purple,brown,etc.Josh and Paulson never went through those.Paulson was training with Nakamura prior and while training bjj.

have you ever trained in CACC?what's your experience with CACC?

9/16/14 11:17 PM
11/10/05
Posts: 4587
EKPOGI - 

because there's a thread were people are saying one is not a legit bb in bjj since they never went through purple,brown,etc.Josh and Paulson never went through those.Paulson was training with Nakamura prior and while training bjj.

have you ever trained in CACC?what's your experience with CACC?


No I have not.... Are you really trying to talk about the legitimacy of their rank now?!!? Paulson started bjj in '86. He was a blue at Rickson's alone for 4 years..He continued training and competing all over the world..He was no part time hobbyist. He spend time at Rigan's. He was evaluated and worked on specifics that Rigan wanted to see improved while training with BBs at his academy.  Then, If someone of the stature of Rigan gives you a BB... You're a f^ckin' BB. I highly doubt Josh just tossed on a gi and the nearest belt which just happened to be black.

9/16/14 11:56 PM
7/29/05
Posts: 54
BJJ seems to have a hard time accepting world class submission grapplers who don't come from BJJ.
Josh, Ronda, Hughs and at one time Sakuraba.
You see the same kind of thing at a local level between BJJ schools with different lineages. Some student talk crap about the other schools because there style is <insert subtle difference here>.

If all BJJers had this closed mind set BJJ would be in a shitty state right now. The smart people will listen and learn from Josh. To me Josh never looked like a BJJ guy in any of his fights or matches.

Also (as an aside)- if a bjj guy doesn't have a certain style of bjj and does well he doesn't seem to get love from the BJJ community. A few weeks back Jacare absolutely dismantled Musashi with fantastic BJJ, but I seen no love here for him!
Edited: 9/17/14 2:56 AM
7/27/04
Posts: 15922
Meatgrinder - 
EKPOGI - 

because there's a thread were people are saying one is not a legit bb in bjj since they never went through purple,brown,etc.Josh and Paulson never went through those.Paulson was training with Nakamura prior and while training bjj.

have you ever trained in CACC?what's your experience with CACC?


No I have not.... Are you really trying to talk about the legitimacy of their rank now?!!? Paulson started bjj in '86. He was a blue at Rickson's alone for 4 years..He continued training and competing all over the world..He was no part time hobbyist. He spend time at Rigan's. He was evaluated and worked on specifics that Rigan wanted to see improved while training with BBs at his academy.  Then, If someone of the stature of Rigan gives you a BB... You're a f^ckin' BB. I highly doubt Josh just tossed on a gi and the nearest belt which just happened to be black.


everyone that has trained and studied catch knew what Josh was doing cacc vs Lister.BJJ hasn't work as far as submitting Dean in 16 years

Paulson has trained longer in catch than bjj.

iirc story was Josh wasn't fighting anytime soon,and there was a gi tournament coming up,he said he wanted to compete,and Paulson said just do the black belt so you can do leg locks.

Then,if someone of the stature of Josh Barnett tells you he's a Catch Wrestler...He's a f^ckin' Catch Wrestler.

9/17/14 4:24 AM
9/20/07
Posts: 2922
What's the difference from a grinding bjj top player style and a catch style? The shoes to me would make a big difference to a heavy top player.

Assuming we are talking grappling to a finish. Not tournament rules. Phone Post 3.0
9/17/14 10:21 AM
3/6/12
Posts: 16611
I seriously had no idea this thread would become such the firestorm when I made it.
9/17/14 10:44 AM
11/10/05
Posts: 4589
EKPOGI - 
Meatgrinder - 
EKPOGI - 

because there's a thread were people are saying one is not a legit bb in bjj since they never went through purple,brown,etc.Josh and Paulson never went through those.Paulson was training with Nakamura prior and while training bjj.

have you ever trained in CACC?what's your experience with CACC?


No I have not.... Are you really trying to talk about the legitimacy of their rank now?!!? Paulson started bjj in '86. He was a blue at Rickson's alone for 4 years..He continued training and competing all over the world..He was no part time hobbyist. He spend time at Rigan's. He was evaluated and worked on specifics that Rigan wanted to see improved while training with BBs at his academy.  Then, If someone of the stature of Rigan gives you a BB... You're a f^ckin' BB. I highly doubt Josh just tossed on a gi and the nearest belt which just happened to be black.


everyone that has trained and studied catch knew what Josh was doing cacc vs Lister.BJJ hasn't work as far as submitting Dean in 16 years

Paulson has trained longer in catch than bjj.

iirc story was Josh wasn't fighting anytime soon,and there was a gi tournament coming up,he said he wanted to compete,and Paulson said just do the black belt so you can do leg locks.

Then,if someone of the stature of Josh Barnett tells you he's a Catch Wrestler...He's a f^ckin' Catch Wrestler.


1. yeah sure...you looked at that and said not only was he doing cacc, but you also determined that he was NOT doing BJJ because that hasn't worked on Dean in 16 years. 

2. It's not weather Paulson has been training longer in one vs the other. His and Josh's grappling roots are catch. That is totally irrelevant to my point... He's totally downplayed and disrregard his experience in bjj. Even within this thread. He didn't accidentally overlook my question about his experience and rank. He cherry picked what he wanted to answer

3. Like I said in the previous point... Of course he and Paulson are catch wrestlers. You're just reaching and grasping with irrelevant statements. As has been stated over and over agin...He's completely downplaying and disregarding his experience and background in bjj in order to promote catch. You don't just leave that experience at home and say, hey I'm just bringing my catch skills to the table for this one. I'm calling b^llsh!t on your story...That vid was from Feb of this year....Sounds like your story is from a long time ago...So he's been putting the gi on for a while..huh.

 

I would have no problem for his promotion of catch if it was done from an angle that that didn't try to disregard or put bjj down in order to lift up catch... People are looking to bring in techniques from many arts..bjj guys looking to improve their standup with judo and folk wrestling...wrestlers interesting in the what bjj adds to grappling even beyond the submissions, etc. Instead, he's concerned about the future of catch and sees the growing popularity of bjj as a threat to catch...With the growing popularity of sub only formats he should be getting the bjj community to embrace catch as a set of tools that could compliment their bjj much like judo.

 

 

9/17/14 2:54 PM
7/27/07
Posts: 13461
You come from where you come from. I think Josh is respecting his lineage by crediting his accomplishments to the style and people who formulated him as a grappler.

You receive your mentality and vision from your foundation. It's much like the values you hold from the circumstances and culture of where you were raised. If you spent the first 20 years of your life in Texas then move to Florida for the next 20 and have great success, usually people would and attribute the main influence of their character and success as an individual to the people who were in their life for those first 20. This is despite the education and perspectives they might have gained after moving. They identify with being a Texan.

And for the most part I think it is correct to do so. Phone Post 3.0
9/17/14 3:40 PM
7/14/08
Posts: 15884
This is silly. Everyone should base their grappling like I do mine: after the Spartan Agoge. Everything allowed including nut shots. Spartans were grappling thousands of years before Farmer Burns, the Snake Pit and the Gracies. Phone Post 3.0
9/17/14 10:16 PM
2/28/06
Posts: 5299
Catch is not about individual submission techniques. It's about "wrestling" and it's a different intent/attitude.

not better or worse, just different
9/17/14 10:42 PM
11/1/05
Posts: 2539
Think about this...


Rickson Gracie has an extensive Judo background, yet no one would EVER refer to Rickson as Judoka

The late Rolls Gracie trained in Judo, Sambo, Freestyle, and American folkstyle. No one would EVER claim him to be anything other than GJJ/BJJ.

Either Rener or Ryron Gracie (maybe both) wrestled throughout school, yet no one would EVER say "they're really just wrestlers".

Josh is a catch wrestler. He is. Just face it guys. Its ok.


PS...

Erik Paulson also trained in Judo and Sambo. Where are all the Judo and Sambo guys butthurt about Josh just claiming CACC?

Josh has also trained in Judo, where are all the butthurt Judoka?

Why is it ALWAYS internet BJJ guys?
9/17/14 10:48 PM
5/15/03
Posts: 2994
I respect all grappling arts and love the history behind them and seeing how they've blended together from cross training and ending up in the same regions. Josh has admitted in interviews that he does whatever works best no matter if it's called catch, wrestling, judo, sambo, submission wrestling, pro wrestling, jiu jitsu etc. Although I personally feel for me BJJ is the way to go, don't think for a second that I haven't incorporated techniques from catch and pro wrestling into my grappling game. I say train whatever works and rep whatever has had the most influence on you. Phone Post 3.0
9/17/14 11:21 PM
2/28/06
Posts: 5302
BeerMuscles - Think about this...


Rickson Gracie has an extensive Judo background, yet no one would EVER refer to Rickson as Judoka

The late Rolls Gracie trained in Judo, Sambo, Freestyle, and American folkstyle. No one would EVER claim him to be anything other than GJJ/BJJ.

Either Rener or Ryron Gracie (maybe both) wrestled throughout school, yet no one would EVER say "they're really just wrestlers".

Josh is a catch wrestler. He is. Just face it guys. Its ok.


PS...

Erik Paulson also trained in Judo and Sambo. Where are all the Judo and Sambo guys butthurt about Josh just claiming CACC?

Josh has also trained in Judo, where are all the butthurt Judoka?

Why is it ALWAYS internet BJJ guys?

That's exactly what I've been saying!


Great post, Cole!
good point
9/18/14 12:34 AM
6/24/09
Posts: 1572
Flavor of the month. You used to hear this about the rubber guard a few years back. Phone Post 3.0
9/18/14 1:13 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 9645
this thread is making me be ashamed to be a bjj guy. a lot of you guys are acting very insecure.

by the way, the pin in catch had to be from side control I believe. being on your back with an open guard would not count as a pin so catch guys can still go for leg attacks or try to stand up without giving their back. Phone Post 3.0
9/18/14 1:16 AM
4/24/08
Posts: 1179

if we call it grappling can we all be happy?

9/18/14 1:38 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 1518
Cole, curious what specific catch techniques you liked enough to add into your repertoire?
9/18/14 3:40 PM
5/28/10
Posts: 1807
John Nic - Flavor of the month. You used to hear this about the rubber guard a few years back. Phone Post 3.0

Josh has many many flavorful months tapping out high level grapplers.

Eddie, for all his contributions, has not had a similar competition career.

I associate catch with grinding top pressure, shoulder pressure to the jaw during pins, etc. Lots more pain compliance moves that dont always make friends in the more gentlemanly world of bjj.
9/19/14 3:38 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 354
Meatgrinder - 
EKPOGI - 

because there's a thread were people are saying one is not a legit bb in bjj since they never went through purple,brown,etc.Josh and Paulson never went through those.Paulson was training with Nakamura prior and while training bjj.

have you ever trained in CACC?what's your experience with CACC?


No I have not.... Are you really trying to talk about the legitimacy of their rank now?!!? Paulson started bjj in '86. He was a blue at Rickson's alone for 4 years..He continued training and competing all over the world..He was no part time hobbyist. He spend time at Rigan's. He was evaluated and worked on specifics that Rigan wanted to see improved while training with BBs at his academy.  Then, If someone of the stature of Rigan gives you a BB... You're a f^ckin' BB. I highly doubt Josh just tossed on a gi and the nearest belt which just happened to be black.


Actually that's pretty close to how it happened.

I showed up at for a No-Gi money tournament (The California Classic). As soon as I showed up things started getting foggy as to whether the open was No-Gi as advertised or now potentially Gi. The promoter brings all of us together and decides to have everyone take a vote: No-Gi or Gi. Me and one other raise our hands for No-Gi, the rest basically all look at me and then raise their hands for Gi. Asa Fuller even remarked something along the lines of "Gotta increase my chances. Sorry." My reply to all this was "I don't even own a gi."

So while waiting to figure out what I was going to do because A) I showed up to wrestle and B) I was determined to put on a Gi just to prove a point that with or without out I can beat you. I believ Asa said he would lend me a spare he had in his car (Which was cool of him in my book) but then Sam from BreakPoint comes up and says "Hey! We'll sponsor you. Just take a pic for us." Me, loving the irony at the chance to promote a Gui company could not possibly pass this opportunity up. BreakPoint BTW are great dudes to this very day.

However, not EVER training BJJ (Minus one class with Juliano Prado) I had no rank and no belt...too which I tried to go out there in a white belt. There was absolutely NO WAY there were letting me on the mat without a black belt so Chris Hauter belted me on the spot just to compete. 

After that and just watching me roll with a Gi on against others Erik wanted to promote me as his first black belt. Rigan gave his endorsement and that's how I went from zero to hero in BJJ. I was given a black belt based on competition and ability to wrestle in the gi alone. To me, techniques and principles are easy to grasp and while even with a gi on my style is not usual, after seeing it and competing against BJJ for as long as I have I've pretty well got an understanding of the art.

That photo is of me at the Rigan Machado belting ceremony to get my 2nd degree. Rigan has seem me roll and knows I know my stuff. If I wanted to train people to compete in BJJ I have no doubt I could do with my overall experience on the mats, albeit with my own Catch based philosophies. But still, I keep saying wrestling is wrestling in many ways. Move are moves. The difference is how you use them, where you prioritize, then competition base.

Fact is though I am a CATCH AS CATCH CAN WRESTLER above all else. My philosophies, preferred style of competition, hold base, and game theory are CATCH WRESTLING. That's not me putting down ANYTHING. That's ME believing in what I do and promoting THAT. I have coached athletes that have competed at the Mundials in the gi. I have trained BJJ guys and trained with them. If they don't feel the need to discredit me being a CATCH WRESTLER then why should anyone else?

 

Josh

 

PS. Our fighters at CSW are based in Catch as well. We don't emphasize BJJ training and we don't do gi. Erik doesn't teach a whole ton of BJJ to people even though he has done it himself. He teached his style Combat Submission Wrestling which is primarily Catch based. There are people that have BJJ in their training background and we don't discourage any of them to discard anything that works for them already either.

9/19/14 4:00 AM
7/27/04
Posts: 15956
^awesome story

\m/
9/19/14 8:54 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 2336
Josh Barnett - 
Meatgrinder - 
EKPOGI - 

because there's a thread were people are saying one is not a legit bb in bjj since they never went through purple,brown,etc.Josh and Paulson never went through those.Paulson was training with Nakamura prior and while training bjj.

have you ever trained in CACC?what's your experience with CACC?


No I have not.... Are you really trying to talk about the legitimacy of their rank now?!!? Paulson started bjj in '86. He was a blue at Rickson's alone for 4 years..He continued training and competing all over the world..He was no part time hobbyist. He spend time at Rigan's. He was evaluated and worked on specifics that Rigan wanted to see improved while training with BBs at his academy.  Then, If someone of the stature of Rigan gives you a BB... You're a f^ckin' BB. I highly doubt Josh just tossed on a gi and the nearest belt which just happened to be black.


Actually that's pretty close to how it happened.

I showed up at for a No-Gi money tournament (The California Classic). As soon as I showed up things started getting foggy as to whether the open was No-Gi as advertised or now potentially Gi. The promoter brings all of us together and decides to have everyone take a vote: No-Gi or Gi. Me and one other raise our hands for No-Gi, the rest basically all look at me and then raise their hands for Gi. Asa Fuller even remarked something along the lines of "Gotta increase my chances. Sorry." My reply to all this was "I don't even own a gi."

So while waiting to figure out what I was going to do because A) I showed up to wrestle and B) I was determined to put on a Gi just to prove a point that with or without out I can beat you. I believ Asa said he would lend me a spare he had in his car (Which was cool of him in my book) but then Sam from BreakPoint comes up and says "Hey! We'll sponsor you. Just take a pic for us." Me, loving the irony at the chance to promote a Gui company could not possibly pass this opportunity up. BreakPoint BTW are great dudes to this very day.

However, not EVER training BJJ (Minus one class with Juliano Prado) I had no rank and no belt...too which I tried to go out there in a white belt. There was absolutely NO WAY there were letting me on the mat without a black belt so Chris Hauter belted me on the spot just to compete. 

After that and just watching me roll with a Gi on against others Erik wanted to promote me as his first black belt. Rigan gave his endorsement and that's how I went from zero to hero in BJJ. I was given a black belt based on competition and ability to wrestle in the gi alone. To me, techniques and principles are easy to grasp and while even with a gi on my style is not usual, after seeing it and competing against BJJ for as long as I have I've pretty well got an understanding of the art.

That photo is of me at the Rigan Machado belting ceremony to get my 2nd degree. Rigan has seem me roll and knows I know my stuff. If I wanted to train people to compete in BJJ I have no doubt I could do with my overall experience on the mats, albeit with my own Catch based philosophies. But still, I keep saying wrestling is wrestling in many ways. Move are moves. The difference is how you use them, where you prioritize, then competition base.

Fact is though I am a CATCH AS CATCH CAN WRESTLER above all else. My philosophies, preferred style of competition, hold base, and game theory are CATCH WRESTLING. That's not me putting down ANYTHING. That's ME believing in what I do and promoting THAT. I have coached athletes that have competed at the Mundials in the gi. I have trained BJJ guys and trained with them. If they don't feel the need to discredit me being a CATCH WRESTLER then why should anyone else?

 

Josh

 

PS. Our fighters at CSW are based in Catch as well. We don't emphasize BJJ training and we don't do gi. Erik doesn't teach a whole ton of BJJ to people even though he has done it himself. He teached his style Combat Submission Wrestling which is primarily Catch based. There are people that have BJJ in their training background and we don't discourage any of them to discard anything that works for them already either.


this is not unheard of, Newaza specialist Koji Komuro was awarded his BB by Yuki Nakai simply because he was cleaning the mat with bjj BB. If Josh says he's a catch Wrestler what's so hard to believe about it?