David Jacobs' BJJGround Best Gracie fighter?

9/12/18 3:19 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 2918
Who is the best Gracie fighter, not sport competition but Vale Tudo and street fighting?
1. Carlson 14-1-3 Vale Tudo, multiple challenge matches
2. Rickson 11-0, many challenge matches
3. Relson, over 130 street fights, no loses
4. Roger 8-2 MMA
5. Renzo, never backed down from a challenge
6. Ralph
7. Ryan
8. Royce
9. Robson
10. Rolls
11. Carley
Edited: 9/12/18 5:17 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12084
Being fair to all lineages, it really should be between Rickson, Relson and maybe Rolls
9/12/18 5:41 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 32073

George Gracie, according to Carlos, Sr.

 

 

 

 

9/12/18 6:31 PM
4/2/13
Posts: 5883

Spanning generations, who knows, I can tell you Relson will say Rolls unanimously. 

9/14/18 1:45 PM
1/22/05
Posts: 21939
I dunno how you can quantify that because a lot of them didn't fight meaningful competition to be able to evaluate them truly.

There's a big difference between beating someone with little to know skill in challenge matches, or one dimensional fighters - to fighting well rounded fighters in MMA.

I would say Renzo has the most impressive career in terms of who has he fought and beaten. Renzo was never afraid to test himself.

I also give Royce credit. Even early in his career when MMA was one dimensional, he fought some guys who should have been kryptonite to his - like Shamrock and Severn. Later on he went to war against a prime Sakuraba and wasn't afraid to test himself against a prime Matt Hughes.

Rickson only has one meaningful fight against Funaki.

In the modern era, I think Roger had a good career against good competition. He just didn't have many fights.

Rolls I think would have done well in early MMA if he was still around. Everyone clearly thought highly of him and he seemed well rounded and didn't depend solely on BJJ.
9/14/18 5:51 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8391
Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.

Edited: 9/14/18 6:00 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12105
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.
9/14/18 8:20 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8393
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.
Edited: 9/15/18 2:29 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 12109
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.

Conor-Aldo wasn't a fight? Tyson-Mitch Green wasn't a fight? Royce-Shamorck 1 (57 seconds) wasn't a fight?
9/15/18 10:33 AM
5/11/08
Posts: 1689

Saku recently did an AMA on the Reddit mma subreddit and said Renzo was favourite fight of all the Gracie fights. He said it was because he was the only one who didn't ask for special rules. 

9/15/18 9:44 PM
12/24/10
Posts: 2594

 

9/16/18 6:31 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8395
FatBuddha - 
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.

Conor-Aldo wasn't a fight? Tyson-Mitch Green wasn't a fight? Royce-Shamorck 1 (57 seconds) wasn't a fight?

Dude... STOP...

I am not talking about anyone else other that RELSON GRACIE.

I am specifically talking about RELSON street experience not Conor, Aldo, Mike Tyson, Mitch Green, Royce or Ken Shamrock. I don't even know why you brought them up. They have absolutely NOTHING to do with Relson and Relson's street experience.
9/16/18 11:20 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12115
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.

Conor-Aldo wasn't a fight? Tyson-Mitch Green wasn't a fight? Royce-Shamorck 1 (57 seconds) wasn't a fight?

Dude... STOP...

I am not talking about anyone else other that RELSON GRACIE.

I am specifically talking about RELSON street experience not Conor, Aldo, Mike Tyson, Mitch Green, Royce or Ken Shamrock. I don't even know why you brought them up. They have absolutely NOTHING to do with Relson and Relson's street experience.

Not sure if serious. YOU argued that a confrontation under a minute wasn't a fight. I gave examples obliterating your argument. Now your comeback is "Dude...STOP"???????????????????????????
9/17/18 12:11 AM
3/17/10
Posts: 854
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.

How about bare knuckle fights such as Rio Heroes....those real enough or is MMA your only means is testing ones fight ability. I want to see how many UFC fighters will fight Rio Heroes rules. 

9/17/18 12:14 AM
3/17/10
Posts: 855
FatBuddha -
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.

Conor-Aldo wasn't a fight? Tyson-Mitch Green wasn't a fight? Royce-Shamorck 1 (57 seconds) wasn't a fight?

So a fight with gloves, rules, referee and time limit is only a true fight. 

9/17/18 1:38 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8396
Ernest Estrada - 
FatBuddha -
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.

Conor-Aldo wasn't a fight? Tyson-Mitch Green wasn't a fight? Royce-Shamorck 1 (57 seconds) wasn't a fight?

So a fight with gloves, rules, referee and time limit is only a true fight. 


Again, I am specifically talking about RELSON and his so called street experience. Relson claimed NONE of encounters in the streets lasted longer than a minute.

In my opinion those encounters are not fights but confrontations.
9/17/18 3:49 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12120
m.g - 
Ernest Estrada - 
FatBuddha -
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.

Conor-Aldo wasn't a fight? Tyson-Mitch Green wasn't a fight? Royce-Shamorck 1 (57 seconds) wasn't a fight?

So a fight with gloves, rules, referee and time limit is only a true fight. 


Again, I am specifically talking about RELSON and his so called street experience. Relson claimed NONE of encounters in the streets lasted longer than a minute.

In my opinion those encounters are not fights but confrontations.

You do understand that logical people make general definitions that apply to more than one person in the universe, right? I don't give a fuck if you think you're only talking about Relson, but when you make an arbitrary rule that you think fights under a minute aren't fights, if you want to be logical, you have to apply that to all fights under a minute and not just Relson's fights under a minute. If someone shows you how silly that line of thinking is with counter-examples you should pause and try to think instead of obstinately repeating your arbitrary rule.
9/18/18 1:23 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8398
FatBuddha - 
m.g - 
Ernest Estrada - 
FatBuddha -
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.

Conor-Aldo wasn't a fight? Tyson-Mitch Green wasn't a fight? Royce-Shamorck 1 (57 seconds) wasn't a fight?

So a fight with gloves, rules, referee and time limit is only a true fight. 


Again, I am specifically talking about RELSON and his so called street experience. Relson claimed NONE of encounters in the streets lasted longer than a minute.

In my opinion those encounters are not fights but confrontations.

You do understand that logical people make general definitions that apply to more than one person in the universe, right? I don't give a fuck if you think you're only talking about Relson, but when you make an arbitrary rule that you think fights under a minute aren't fights, if you want to be logical, you have to apply that to all fights under a minute and not just Relson's fights under a minute. If someone shows you how silly that line of thinking is with counter-examples you should pause and try to think instead of obstinately repeating your arbitrary rule.

Dude... STOP...

You're trying to avoid the issue by making about everyone or everything else EXCEPT the issue itself. I don't care about anyone else because I am not talking about anyone else. Furthermore I am not making general statements... I am talking specifically about Relson and his street experience..
9/18/18 6:27 PM
4/2/13
Posts: 5892

I'll see Relson this week, you want me to ask him anything?  He's from a different generation. He was a black belt the year I was born in think, and yes, he was a brutal bastard.   I had dinner with Pedro Sauer once and asked him if the stories were true, he said that he and his brother were good friends with Relson back in the day and kinda hung out with him.  Pedro said the stories were watered down, Relson was way more brutal.

Edited: 9/18/18 6:49 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 12126
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - 
Ernest Estrada - 
FatBuddha -
m.g - 
FatBuddha - 
m.g - Here's the thing about Relson and his "street fight" record:

By his own admission, NONE of Relson's so-called street fights lasted over a 1 minute.

All (the vast majority) of Relson's so-called street fights weren't even fights but rather quick and dirty confrontations... a push...a shovel... takedown... rear naked choke... Furthermore, the people with whom Relson had these confrontations with knew absolutely nothing. They were bums... wanna be tough guys who had no fighting skill whatsoever.

I am sure other Gracie's have had their fair share of street confrontations.


Keep in mind that Rickson himself said he'd rather fight a 250 pound guy in the ring than a 150 pound person in the street. Some of those fights were against multiple opponents. Some were against people with weapons. If we're training jiujitsu as a martial art, for self defense, that's pretty good experience to have. If we somehow use mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience we should do the same for people like Bas Rutten. I'm not convinced we should. And I haven't even mentioned the psychological pressure that goes with no ref and no rules. Remember what Mark Twain said about the unskilled brawler often being the most dangerous.

What?

"mental gymnastics to minimize Relson's street experience"

I am not trying to minimize anything. Truth and perspective.

You mentioned the word "fights". I wouldn't call a confrontation that lasted less than a minute (again, Relson's own words) a fight.

Conor-Aldo wasn't a fight? Tyson-Mitch Green wasn't a fight? Royce-Shamorck 1 (57 seconds) wasn't a fight?

So a fight with gloves, rules, referee and time limit is only a true fight. 


Again, I am specifically talking about RELSON and his so called street experience. Relson claimed NONE of encounters in the streets lasted longer than a minute.

In my opinion those encounters are not fights but confrontations.

You do understand that logical people make general definitions that apply to more than one person in the universe, right? I don't give a fuck if you think you're only talking about Relson, but when you make an arbitrary rule that you think fights under a minute aren't fights, if you want to be logical, you have to apply that to all fights under a minute and not just Relson's fights under a minute. If someone shows you how silly that line of thinking is with counter-examples you should pause and try to think instead of obstinately repeating your arbitrary rule.

Dude... STOP...

You're trying to avoid the issue by making about everyone or everything else EXCEPT the issue itself. I don't care about anyone else because I am not talking about anyone else. Furthermore I am not making general statements... I am talking specifically about Relson and his street experience..

There is no way to explain it more simply to you. Just stop.
Edited: 9/20/18 3:37 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8400
Fatbuddha...

YOU need to stop. You're the one avoiding the issue by trying to make it about everyone else EXCEPT Relson. In case your dumb-ass didn't know the point of this thread is who is the best Gracie fighter.

You have Relson at number three on your list and I don't think he should be even ranked that high in his family. I think there are better fighters in the Gracie family than Relson who have more extensive "street fight" experience.

Incidentally Carlos Jr, who isn't even on the list, owned Relson (submitted him). Furthermore there is no way Rolls and Carley should be at the bottom of the list.
9/20/18 3:40 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8401
shen - 

George Gracie, according to Carlos, Sr.

 

 

 

 


Actually it has been stated that Carlos Sr thought Oswaldo was the best fighter out the original Gracie brothers.
9/20/18 3:45 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8402
Robobear - 

I'll see Relson this week, you want me to ask him anything?  He's from a different generation. He was a black belt the year I was born in think, and yes, he was a brutal bastard.   I had dinner with Pedro Sauer once and asked him if the stories were true, he said that he and his brother were good friends with Relson back in the day and kinda hung out with him.  Pedro said the stories were watered down, Relson was way more brutal.


I don't doubt that Relson was brutal and sadistic. Again, the question is where does Relson place among the many fighters in the Gracie family?

I think there are others in the Gracie family who were (are) better fighters than Relson.
9/20/18 5:42 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 24236

 

street fighting is unconfirmed but i'd put it

 

rickson also probably the best technical fighter, from zulu to funaki pretty good. 

carlson (better vale tudo, but rickson seemed to be more for street fights as well or less sports. i also think a prime rickson beats carlson)

george 

relson (because his victories streetfighting were probably greater than his vale tudo, he's the reverse carlson)

oswaldo

helio pfp maybe the greatest but he lost to kimura and santana. 

ralph didn't seem to lose street fights and didn't lose in extreme fighting. 

 

Edited: 9/21/18 12:33 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 12155
m.g - Fatbuddha...

YOU need to stop. You're the one avoiding the issue by trying to make it about everyone else EXCEPT Relson. In case your dumb-ass didn't know the point of this thread is who is the best Gracie fighter.

You have Relson at number three on your list and I don't think he should be even ranked that high in his family. I think there are better fighters in the Gracie family than Relson who have more extensive "street fight" experience.

Incidentally Carlos Jr, who isn't even on the list, owned Relson (submitted him). Furthermore there is no way Rolls and Carley should be at the bottom of the list.

Dumb ass? You literally don't understand that a standard you create should apply universally. Your argument is that there is no such thing as a fight less than a minute which is literally a special needs way of thinking. No one in the Gracie family thinks that anyone has had more street fight experience than Relson. Apparently you're butt hurt about Relson for some reason. Your only evidence of Relson's supposed deficiencies as a FIGHTER is that he lost a sport JJ roll in a training session to the great Carlos Jr. at a time he was partying a lot? GTFO here.