David Jacobs' BJJGround Brown by internet?

8/10/19 8:37 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 47

"So my brown belts no good?"

8/10/19 9:02 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 13660

I have seen some products of distance learning&certification.......it can be good, or it can be kinda meh. Some peoole are good at mimicking materiel.and obviously lack certain attributes. If a hihgly experienced and analytical instructor is givijg regular guidance and feedback it can be good. And certain subjects can be easier to teach/learn through such methods.....I dunno about jiujitsu

 

I personally dont care for such programs. But I cant eventeach and evaluate people well unless i actuallu have someone doing whatever i am evaluating do it to me, so I obviously dont have much of a leg to stand on on the subject. What I would like empasized is more concepts and attribute development in programsrather than techniques or sequences. But Im not a high-level performer or instructor so wtf do i know.

 

 

8/11/19 5:50 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8586
Out of all the major combat sports(boxing, wrestling, Judo, Bjj, Muay Thai) I can only think of two that follow a belt ranking structure (Judo and Bjj). And of those two, one (Bjj) based its belt ranking on other (Judo)...

Belt ranks in Judo, for the most part are based on knowledge, experience and ability. All three of those qualities are tested and examined from white to black belt and beyond.

Bjj's belt ranking procedures should follow the same procedures and principles of Judo upon which it is based.

8/11/19 6:20 PM
3/15/15
Posts: 12008
m.g - Out of all the major combat sports(boxing, wrestling, Judo, Bjj, Muay Thai) I can only think of two that follow a belt ranking structure (Judo and Bjj). And of those two, one (Bjj) based its belt ranking on other (Judo)...

Belt ranks in Judo, for the most part are based on knowledge, experience and ability. All three of those qualities are tested and examined from white to black belt and beyond.

Bjj's belt ranking procedures should follow the same procedures and principles of Judo upon which it is based.


As someone who trained Judo 30 plus years ago, I will say that this sounds correct, but factually it is not correct. In Judo one can attain rank through competition, and I can safely say that there wass a huuuuge latitude in skill and knowledge between belt ranks. In Judo, one can attain brown belt within a year and sometimes black belt. The conception of rank and black belt was traditionally different in Japan and not really a huge deal. A black belts were a dime a dozen internationally, for the most part. The idea of simple recreation practitioners was well established in Judo (vs. serious competitors) and criteria for belt promotions varied widely in different schools. I will say it was much much harder to attain rank in BJJ and longer, too. Whether or not that has changed to any degree in Judo, I am not sure.
The conceptual underpinnings of Japanese ranking systems changed with BJJ.
8/11/19 6:34 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 13662
m.g - Out of all the major combat sports(boxing, wrestling, Judo, Bjj, Muay Thai) I can only think of two that follow a belt ranking structure (Judo and Bjj). And of those two, one (Bjj) based its belt ranking on other (Judo)...

Belt ranks in Judo, for the most part are based on knowledge, experience and ability. All three of those qualities are tested and examined from white to black belt and beyond.

Bjj's belt ranking procedures should follow the same procedures and principles of Judo upon which it is based.

well...how many judoka full gokyo? How many times have i done an ude gaeshiand had black belts ask me what was that throw. How many judoka are barely know any newaza. Heck did you k ow judo has leg attacks? Most focus is on ijf judo. So what is the standard?

What is the equivalent of the gokyo for bjj? Wi5h all the ridiculous guards and silly lapel and gi crap, is that a criteria for grading?....is the archaic SD curriculum?....is VT? Is bjj a sport or martial art/fighting style?...wouldnt that detrrmine its criteria?

 

8/13/19 2:12 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8587
HotSteppa and Sgt Slaphead,

First off, since both of you claim Judo knowledge and experience, both of you should know that a Judo black belt does not signify either a fighter or a teacher. a Judo black belt simply signifies having completed the Judo curriculum. Yes, Judo black belts are a dime a dozen, especially in Japan... BUT a Judo black belt also doesn't carry the same weight in Japan as it does else where, at least not in terms of rank/status.

You both should know DANS or RANKS after the black belt mean much more in Judo (I realize this is also true in Bjj). A 4th Dan in Judo, which is consider the rank of a TEACHER is expected to know things a regular black belt doesn't know. Furthermore, in Japan, anyone who desires to teach Judo MUST have additional training, particularly teacher training...

My current Bjj coach, Nobu Yagai, Japanese (born and raised in Japan), desired to supplement his Bjj knowledge, skill and ability, with Judo. He went back to his homeland and trained at the Kodokan.

He received his black belt there and, because his desire to expand his teaching skills with Judo, also received a teaching certification from the Kodokan. Yes... the Kodokan have classes and certification for those who desire to teach Judo. In fact, these teaching courses/classes and teaching certifications have been available at the Kodokan since its inception (over 150 years).

Anyway... the way Helio originally structured Bjj is equivalent to the gokyo of Bjj.
Edited: 8/13/19 3:46 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 13663

so if bjj should follow judo and you make the point of japan expectations of shodan......so a bjj black belt should not be expected an "expert"

 

I kinda would accept that. But what should the standard criteria be? Like hotsteppa stated, you can make shodan with pointd. So basically ijf focused....should we make that the standard for bjj with ibjjf basically defining bjj? Seems kinda already happening. So Helio "structured" bjj criteria is basically irrelevnt. Ive stated before...to me bjj must include SD&VT, clinch, etc.

8/13/19 6:02 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8592
Sgt. Slaphead - 

so if bjj should follow judo and you make the point of japan expectations of shodan......so a bjj black belt should not be expected an "expert"

 

I kinda would accept that. But what should the standard criteria be? Like hotsteppa stated, you can make shodan with pointd. So basically ijf focused....should we make that the standard for bjj with ibjjf basically defining bjj? Seems kinda already happening. So Helio "structured" bjj criteria is basically irrelevnt. Ive stated before...to me bjj must include SD&VT, clinch, etc.


My understanding is a Bjj black belt really doesn't have much power, in terms of teaching or even running a school. That is, a Bjj black belt CANNOT promote people to black belt... in fact, I think they even need permission to promote someone to brown belt. Actually, I think they need the permission of a ranking black belt (a 2nd black belt, which is supposedly the rank a black belt must be to promote people... at least according to the IBJJF) to promote anyone to any level.

I definitely know that any one under Helio's system had to be certified by him in order to teach Bjj, or his version of Bjj... a black belt couldn't teach...
9/6/19 11:44 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 8604
RobGMAA - 

Righto, firstly I am no one special.  Was a white belt for 15 years, now a brown belt under a Brazilian in our country.  Like many others in the regional areas I taught a class as a white belt and either flew my instructor to us or flew to him to lean and train 4-5 times a year.  We all did this, from all different teams and it takes time, 12 years under my professor and just got to brown.  I am very average.

So, another instructor in town was a white belt in 2015, never competed and doesn’t roll with his guys (kids and girls only, I have spoken to many of his main guys and none of them have rolled with him) - got his brown belt.

He had a black belt teacher, that he saw maybe once a year.  Instead of finding a team to go under (there are heaps and clubs fly in and travel thousands of km’s to see theirs like I do)  he becomes affiliated with a catch wrestling and Bjj black belt in the USA and abra cadabra months later he is a brown belt proudly sprewking it all over the internet.  Pretty sure he bought his own belt and of course put it on himself.

is this the future of BJJ?  Is it going to be like Karate and TKD?  Supposedly it won’t because “the mats don’t lie” but if they never roll and can do it this way?

i am not even mad, just sad.  I feel sorry for his students who don’t know any better and sad for the art of Jiu Jitsu.


I use to feel sorry for students who had such teachers. BUT there is a saying: buyer beware...

A student has many obligations and responsibilities including knowing what they are getting into and with whom they are getting involved.

If the student is smart, he or she will figure out for themselves the teacher is a scrub or isn't as skillful or knowledgeable as he claims. In my experience, most student's figure it out for themselves eventually and will find other teacher/place.
9/9/19 7:40 PM
12/26/02
Posts: 11939

I don't think we can blame newcomers for frauds in their community. How would they know the difference between legitimiate and illegitimate credentials?

We train new people how our community works.  Uniforms, etiquette, terminology, and all other expectations are different than they are outside the gym.  If your instructors tell you that the head instructor doesn't roll, or whatever, why would we think new people would know to question that?

 

9/9/19 8:12 PM
3/15/15
Posts: 12175
m.g - HotSteppa and Sgt Slaphead,

First off, since both of you claim Judo knowledge and experience, both of you should know that a Judo black belt does not signify either a fighter or a teacher. a Judo black belt simply signifies having completed the Judo curriculum. Yes, Judo black belts are a dime a dozen, especially in Japan... BUT a Judo black belt also doesn't carry the same weight in Japan as it does else where, at least not in terms of rank/status.

You both should know DANS or RANKS after the black belt mean much more in Judo (I realize this is also true in Bjj). A 4th Dan in Judo, which is consider the rank of a TEACHER is expected to know things a regular black belt doesn't know. Furthermore, in Japan, anyone who desires to teach Judo MUST have additional training, particularly teacher training...

My current Bjj coach, Nobu Yagai, Japanese (born and raised in Japan), desired to supplement his Bjj knowledge, skill and ability, with Judo. He went back to his homeland and trained at the Kodokan.

He received his black belt there and, because his desire to expand his teaching skills with Judo, also received a teaching certification from the Kodokan. Yes... the Kodokan have classes and certification for those who desire to teach Judo. In fact, these teaching courses/classes and teaching certifications have been available at the Kodokan since its inception (over 150 years).

Anyway... the way Helio originally structured Bjj is equivalent to the gokyo of Bjj.

m.g. although both have a belt ranking system (in Judo, taken originally from the school system, independent of martial arts), both do not have the same criteria for promotion and/or same philosophy of what a belt entails. In Judo, at least traditionally, a black belt was still a somewhat "beginner" rank, or understanding of the fundamentals in order to further train. You are correct that a black belt in Judo does not automatically = teacher, but please note that in some Judo associations, there were colored belt (less than black) instructors allowed.

As an example, my old friend received his brown belt in almost 3 years, primarily through competition. In Judo, there traditionally is a formal exam for black belt (in front of more than one examiner) for technique, required kata, etc. He decided he didn't want to bother with all that. Another person received their black belt in over 4 years. In Japan,black belts in one year's training is not unheard of.

So to compare the two systems in terms of belt philosophy is misguided. Some people receive there first belt in BJJ after at least 2 years of regular training. I received my first Judo belt in two months of training.

So to argue that a BJJ black who takes, say, 8 years to black belt is not ready to grade others, in my estimation, misguided. It is for teaching and grading. I don't have a problem with courses to train instructors, etc. but in the context of BJJ I would gladly take a rank for a legitimate black belt I was training under. I don't care about some BS IBJJF rules, or some nonsense.

I
9/9/19 8:23 PM
6/5/14
Posts: 325

There are at least 100 black belts in our state he could have gone under but he chose an affiliation and a belt from someone he has never met let alone train with.

his students don’t know any better and I feel sorry for them.  He will give out blue and purple belts that the rest of us will not recognize as legit.  Very sad.

It was Carlos Catania that awarded him a brown belt, let him buy his own and put it on himself and then mailed him a certificate.  Carlos seems legit, why would he do that?? Money?

9/9/19 9:51 PM
12/22/18
Posts: 300

Who gave Helio any of his belts?

9/10/19 12:47 AM
6/5/14
Posts: 326

Are you comparing Helio with a guy who was a white belt 4 years ago, only rolls with kids and girls, doesn’t compete or fight?

9/10/19 2:19 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8614
HotSteppa - 
m.g - HotSteppa and Sgt Slaphead,

First off, since both of you claim Judo knowledge and experience, both of you should know that a Judo black belt does not signify either a fighter or a teacher. a Judo black belt simply signifies having completed the Judo curriculum. Yes, Judo black belts are a dime a dozen, especially in Japan... BUT a Judo black belt also doesn't carry the same weight in Japan as it does else where, at least not in terms of rank/status.

You both should know DANS or RANKS after the black belt mean much more in Judo (I realize this is also true in Bjj). A 4th Dan in Judo, which is consider the rank of a TEACHER is expected to know things a regular black belt doesn't know. Furthermore, in Japan, anyone who desires to teach Judo MUST have additional training, particularly teacher training...

My current Bjj coach, Nobu Yagai, Japanese (born and raised in Japan), desired to supplement his Bjj knowledge, skill and ability, with Judo. He went back to his homeland and trained at the Kodokan.

He received his black belt there and, because his desire to expand his teaching skills with Judo, also received a teaching certification from the Kodokan. Yes... the Kodokan have classes and certification for those who desire to teach Judo. In fact, these teaching courses/classes and teaching certifications have been available at the Kodokan since its inception (over 150 years).

Anyway... the way Helio originally structured Bjj is equivalent to the gokyo of Bjj.

m.g. although both have a belt ranking system (in Judo, taken originally from the school system, independent of martial arts), both do not have the same criteria for promotion and/or same philosophy of what a belt entails. In Judo, at least traditionally, a black belt was still a somewhat "beginner" rank, or understanding of the fundamentals in order to further train. You are correct that a black belt in Judo does not automatically = teacher, but please note that in some Judo associations, there were colored belt (less than black) instructors allowed.

As an example, my old friend received his brown belt in almost 3 years, primarily through competition. In Judo, there traditionally is a formal exam for black belt (in front of more than one examiner) for technique, required kata, etc. He decided he didn't want to bother with all that. Another person received their black belt in over 4 years. In Japan,black belts in one year's training is not unheard of.

So to compare the two systems in terms of belt philosophy is misguided. Some people receive there first belt in BJJ after at least 2 years of regular training. I received my first Judo belt in two months of training.

So to argue that a BJJ black who takes, say, 8 years to black belt is not ready to grade others, in my estimation, misguided. It is for teaching and grading. I don't have a problem with courses to train instructors, etc. but in the context of BJJ I would gladly take a rank for a legitimate black belt I was training under. I don't care about some BS IBJJF rules, or some nonsense.

I

I hear what you're saying... I would say this... apart from the IBJJF rules (and even the rules that govern Judo)... what qualifies one to be a teacher is teacher training.

From a position of principle: it doesn't matter how long it takes to receive a black belt, whether it is Bjj or Judo, promotion to black belt in and of itself DOES NOT qualify one to be a coach/instructor.

In my opinion, teaching/coaching is a skill unto itself that should be developed and nurtured, whether formally or informally, well before one engages in it as a professional (or wanna-be professional). Just because your a black belt or because you have years experience in a given sport/physical activity doesn't mean you're qualified to be a coach/instructor...

This is one of the biggest problems in youth sports. You have volunteer coaches/instructors who don't know what they are doing.

The big difference between Judo and Bjj in regards to Teaching/Coaching is this: Judo has built into it teach/coaching training (again, even though my Bjj recently received just a black belt in Judo he is able to teach it with the blessing of the Kodokan BECAUSE he received teacher/coach training directly from the Kodokan... they trained and certified him to teach/train Judo. This teaching/coaching program also exist in Judo established in other countries including the USA)... Bjj DOES NOT have a built in teaching/coaching program as far as I know. I know the Gracie Academy had a teachers' program (I don't know if they still have it. My first Bjj coach was a product of that program). This means, with the exception of the Gracie Academy, most Bjj DO NOT teach people how to teach others.
9/10/19 3:17 PM
12/22/18
Posts: 303
RobGMAA -

Are you comparing Helio with a guy who was a white belt 4 years ago, only rolls with kids and girls, doesn’t compete or fight?

Answer the question.

9/11/19 11:07 PM
4/1/15
Posts: 1296

This whole who got what belt how thing is kind of silly. 

 

That stuff has has zero impact on my training. 

 

And if “people” think the belts are being watered down who the fuck cares. 

 

Get on the mat and roll. Everything becomes crystal clear. 

9/13/19 7:39 PM
4/5/07
Posts: 10425
DuffyLaCoronilla -

This whole who got what belt how thing is kind of silly. 

 

That stuff has has zero impact on my training. 

 

And if “people” think the belts are being watered down who the fuck cares. 

 

Get on the mat and roll. Everything becomes crystal clear. 

Does that apply to all professions?  If you found out your state would license anybody as a plumber as long as they paid a fee, would you say "Who gives a fuck, I won't hire those guys?"  Or would you say, "Hey, this is going to fuck up the whole system, you have to set a standard somewhere."  

Also, how old are you?  Did you train martial arts in the 90s or before?  When everyone had an instructor who could stop your heart with a palm strike or stab their finger straight into you?  Of course, they couldn't demonstrate these techniques, too powerful.  And just like religion, if you let those people instruct children, you will pass their bullshit down before minds are formed enough to see through the bullshit.  And that's how you get a country full of strip-mall bullshit artists.  

I'm fine with a bit of harrassment of questionable practices if it keeps us from going back to the Foot Fist Way days.

9/14/19 3:04 AM
8/28/10
Posts: 12510
DuffyLaCoronilla -

This whole who got what belt how thing is kind of silly. 

 

That stuff has has zero impact on my training. 

 

And if “people” think the belts are being watered down who the fuck cares. 

 

Get on the mat and roll. Everything becomes crystal clear. 

This is exactly what an internet brown would say, and then not roll when asked by an "outsider" 

9/14/19 4:44 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13682
DuffyLaCoronilla -

This whole who got what belt how thing is kind of silly. 

 

That stuff has has zero impact on my training. 

 

And if “people” think the belts are being watered down who the fuck cares. 

 

Get on the mat and roll. Everything becomes crystal clear. 

it is kinda silly....and indeed has little bearing on most peoples training. But....peolle.shoukd care if bjj gets watered down. I care about what has happened to karate....it a damn joke  nowadays because no one cared. I really want to train uechi ryu since 1980s, but I cant find an instructor with what i consider proper training and not much else interests me anymore other than maybe immersing myself into kali.

I already know jiujitsu has shit teachers and that the style itself no longer has the culture of "bes fite inna wirl". Whether it ever was such isnt the point, it prided itself as a fighting style that was willing to prove itself is. Even if some care, I doubt we can stop it from going to shit given what happens to everything else.....at best maybe we slow progression.

 

Your advice to "Get on the mat and roll. Everything becomes crystal clear." is both a truth, and the problem. It should be....Get on the mat and roll, and fight. Everything becomes crystal clear. ;p   Rolling is where we develop of skills and attributes, fighting is where we prove our style. We no longer fight.....therefore jiuitsu is lost.

I was training yesterday with a couple partners. Whe  one had to leave I asked the other what he wanted to work on. After drilling some stuff we rolled a few rounds of guard for our sparring. Then before ending I told him do another couple rounds with focus on arm awareness&control and to reverse us with me me stsrtingg on top. He swept me the 1st round again after a couple minutes.....I again told him to focus on arm awareenss&control. In the next round im re.inding him forcefully of his goal,  ut he still fucking about in default jiujitsu mode. I grab his lapels and pin him with one hand and take my time working to simulate my drawstroke for my fixed blade knife i habitually appendix carry. All 5he while Im telling to control my fucking arms (which he co ti ues failing to do) I 5hen simulate stabbing his asshole (I may have even touched his taint with my knuckle) femoral, and worming my way up his outer thigh, liver and neck.......and .otherfucker was still fucki g about grappling me! It was funny!.....and not so funny too. Its just proves its hard to overcome programming.

9/14/19 6:36 AM
6/5/14
Posts: 327


so irony, wearing a Jiu Jitsu is easy shirt after getting your brown belt on the Internet
9/14/19 6:49 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13684

who is he and is that an alfalfa sprout on his head???How did he get  a belt on the internet?

 

 

9/14/19 7:00 AM
6/5/14
Posts: 328

There are 100+ black belts in Queensland but he couldn’t go under any in our entire country and paid money to a guy called Carlos Catania in the USA, sent him a video and buys himself a brown belt and presto he is a Catania brown belt who was a white belt 4 yeas ago but doesn’t roll and never competed.  

9/14/19 7:08 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13685
should be a black belt for his hair alone!
9/18/19 11:26 PM
4/1/15
Posts: 1310
GenericAmerican -
DuffyLaCoronilla -

This whole who got what belt how thing is kind of silly. 

 

That stuff has has zero impact on my training. 

 

And if “people” think the belts are being watered down who the fuck cares. 

 

Get on the mat and roll. Everything becomes crystal clear. 

Does that apply to all professions?  If you found out your state would license anybody as a plumber as long as they paid a fee, would you say "Who gives a fuck, I won't hire those guys?"  Or would you say, "Hey, this is going to fuck up the whole system, you have to set a standard somewhere."  

Also, how old are you?  Did you train martial arts in the 90s or before?  When everyone had an instructor who could stop your heart with a palm strike or stab their finger straight into you?  Of course, they couldn't demonstrate these techniques, too powerful.  And just like religion, if you let those people instruct children, you will pass their bullshit down before minds are formed enough to see through the bullshit.  And that's how you get a country full of strip-mall bullshit artists.  

I'm fine with a bit of harrassment of questionable practices if it keeps us from going back to the Foot Fist Way days.

A shitty plumber with a certificate would have zero affect on my abilities as a plumber.