David Jacobs' BJJGround Catch wrestling world champ vs bjj

9/8/20 9:46 AM
3/15/15
Posts: 13700
shen - FWIW, I just watched the 2014 Catch World Championship and some matches from 2018.

Out of 17 matches that ended in submission, the breakdown was:

9 RNCs
4 armbars from top
1 standing guillotine
1 Americana
1 wrist lock
1 Crossface neck crank

A couple observations...

There was NOTHING fancy being pulled off, at all. No leg locks or interesting "catch style" submissions. It was only very basic stuff that worked.

Their standup was better than a typical BJJ tournament.

Even though the main sub was the RNC, they were generally not very good at setting it up. Very sloppy for the most part. Like they would fall straight back and then throw the hooks in.

There was almost zero guard or half guard work at all.

Lots of Turtle and riding.

The fall rule was in effect so a pin counted as a partial win. I think you need 2 or 3 falls to win. Not sure.

You could tell who wrestled and who didn't and it made a big differnce.

Kinda hate to say it, but I agree these guys would probably be a little better off doing BJJ, at least on the ground.

What is interesting is that traditonally chokes apparently were not in many catch match rules and were frowned upon.
9/8/20 9:49 AM
8/20/16
Posts: 752
flemingo -

I never liked curran,

I'm a catch fan but i only ever learned bjj, the only catch school near me (in australia) was not remotely legit

I'm looking for who i consider to be the only legit modern catch guy in all of australia Greg Smit, but insofar, the search has been fruitless

 

What's Greg Smit's story? I had no idea he was a catch wrestler. Here he is fighting Guy Mezger:

 

 

9/8/20 3:10 PM
5/15/09
Posts: 6086
pbody -
shen -
Look, the level of BJJ in the U.S. is just MUCH higher than the level of Catch Wrestling.

Jake from Scientific Wrestling and those guys who have been trying to bring Catch back are really more grappling "enthusiasts" rather than high level competetive grapplers & coaches.

There is lots of GREAT stuff in Catch and if we had high level Catch schools everywhere, things might be different. But, these days, the quality & quantity of BJJ is just much higher across the board.

The issue is that Jacobs was a legitimate collegiate wrestler, so he was not just some hobbyist who came off the couch and decided to try catch wrestling without any grappling background as an adult. Apparently he was a two time NCAA Qualifier at Michigan State. He's been training catch for a while so a guy like him should be the perfect representative of what catch can produce these days. 

Seeing how he performed in the video above, I think it's fairly obvious he would be a better grappler if he'd have spent his time at a good bjj school instead. Certainly he has no business calling out high level bjj guys or thinking he can compete in ADCC.

Is there anything to verify Jacobs' wrestling credentials? In the above video he sure doensn't look like he's a stud wrestler...

9/8/20 3:36 PM
4/20/02
Posts: 10051
kennyfrommd -
pbody -
shen -
Look, the level of BJJ in the U.S. is just MUCH higher than the level of Catch Wrestling.

Jake from Scientific Wrestling and those guys who have been trying to bring Catch back are really more grappling "enthusiasts" rather than high level competetive grapplers & coaches.

There is lots of GREAT stuff in Catch and if we had high level Catch schools everywhere, things might be different. But, these days, the quality & quantity of BJJ is just much higher across the board.

The issue is that Jacobs was a legitimate collegiate wrestler, so he was not just some hobbyist who came off the couch and decided to try catch wrestling without any grappling background as an adult. Apparently he was a two time NCAA Qualifier at Michigan State. He's been training catch for a while so a guy like him should be the perfect representative of what catch can produce these days. 

Seeing how he performed in the video above, I think it's fairly obvious he would be a better grappler if he'd have spent his time at a good bjj school instead. Certainly he has no business calling out high level bjj guys or thinking he can compete in ADCC.

Is there anything to verify Jacobs' wrestling credentials? In the above video he sure doensn't look like he's a stud wrestler...

http://www.cal.msu.edu/alumni-friends/alumni-highlights/curran-jacobs

9/8/20 4:11 PM
5/15/09
Posts: 6087
oblongo -
kennyfrommd -
pbody -
shen -
Look, the level of BJJ in the U.S. is just MUCH higher than the level of Catch Wrestling.

Jake from Scientific Wrestling and those guys who have been trying to bring Catch back are really more grappling "enthusiasts" rather than high level competetive grapplers & coaches.

There is lots of GREAT stuff in Catch and if we had high level Catch schools everywhere, things might be different. But, these days, the quality & quantity of BJJ is just much higher across the board.

The issue is that Jacobs was a legitimate collegiate wrestler, so he was not just some hobbyist who came off the couch and decided to try catch wrestling without any grappling background as an adult. Apparently he was a two time NCAA Qualifier at Michigan State. He's been training catch for a while so a guy like him should be the perfect representative of what catch can produce these days. 

Seeing how he performed in the video above, I think it's fairly obvious he would be a better grappler if he'd have spent his time at a good bjj school instead. Certainly he has no business calling out high level bjj guys or thinking he can compete in ADCC.

Is there anything to verify Jacobs' wrestling credentials? In the above video he sure doensn't look like he's a stud wrestler...

http://www.cal.msu.edu/alumni-friends/alumni-highlights/curran-jacobs

Interesting. Maybe I need to watch more matches to get a sense of his wrestling prowess. That interview is hard to read though. Dude comes off like he has a reallly inflated ego and his self-described accomplishments are highly exaggerated.

Edited: 9/8/20 4:25 PM
4/20/02
Posts: 10052

More here from the school's official athletic department website says he went 27-13 in his senior year with an eighth place finish at the Big 10 championship and 3-2 in the NCAA national tourney and was one match away from All American status.

 

https://msuspartans.com/sports/wrestling/roster/curran-jacobs/6207

9/8/20 6:05 PM
12/6/02
Posts: 768
de braco - 
oblongo -

Some footage from the 1937 NCAA nationaal wrestling championship. No back points then. (No points at all, actually. If a match didn't end in a pin, the ref awarded it to the wrestler who spent the most time in control. If that wasn't obvious, it went to the wrestler who was most active).

 

Anyway, this isn't catch, but it's catch derived and closer to the source than modern freestyl or folk and it's interesting how things look without the modern rules but with some high-level athletes and coaching.

 

that is CACC, folk is CACC. Prior to Lancashire and collar and elbow being brought to the states there were no submission holds at all, People like farmer burns, toots mondt, Ad Santel, pink gardener, john pesek, etc combined the submissions of jiudo and the handa s.t.y.l.e(this fucking place with the c.l.a.s,s &s.t.y.l.e) of match jiu jitsu with the leg rides and ground work of lancashire into CACC. Lancashire did use the kimura but it was more of a spin down and pin as opposed to a straight sub, the same with the keylock, and the kimura appears nowhere in any japanese book before the fusion, the americana appears nowhere in folk/CACC before the japanese. Almost any kind of leglock was called a japanese leg lock and the jujigatame was called the japanese armbar, toots was really good with juji to the point of it being called a toots bar


"the kimura appears nowhere in any japanese book before the fusion"

What are you saying there? Are you saying he learned it from some western wrestling style, rather than a Japanese jiu-jitsu ryu?

Ude-garami is a feature in the katame-no-kata, which Kano developed from 1884.
9/9/20 11:29 AM
9/20/19
Posts: 4521
blabbermouth -
flemingo -

I never liked curran,

I'm a catch fan but i only ever learned bjj, the only catch school near me (in australia) was not remotely legit

I'm looking for who i consider to be the only legit modern catch guy in all of australia Greg Smit, but insofar, the search has been fruitless

 

What's Greg Smit's story? I had no idea he was a catch wrestler. Here he is fighting Guy Mezger:

 

 

Gregory smit was either laughably bad at catch/pancrase or he was taking dives for all of these guys because he got jobbed every time except for Vernon the tiger white. 

9/9/20 1:11 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 753
HillboFrateTrane -
blabbermouth -
flemingo -

I never liked curran,

I'm a catch fan but i only ever learned bjj, the only catch school near me (in australia) was not remotely legit

I'm looking for who i consider to be the only legit modern catch guy in all of australia Greg Smit, but insofar, the search has been fruitless

 

What's Greg Smit's story? I had no idea he was a catch wrestler. Here he is fighting Guy Mezger:

 

 

Gregory smit was either laughably bad at catch/pancrase or he was taking dives for all of these guys because he got jobbed every time except for Vernon the tiger white. 

I did some googling since I asked this question. I guess he trained directly with Gotch for a few months and that's why he's seen as a legit source of catch.

9/10/20 1:56 AM
9/14/13
Posts: 6993
blabbermouth -
HillboFrateTrane -
blabbermouth -
flemingo -

I never liked curran,

I'm a catch fan but i only ever learned bjj, the only catch school near me (in australia) was not remotely legit

I'm looking for who i consider to be the only legit modern catch guy in all of australia Greg Smit, but insofar, the search has been fruitless

 

What's Greg Smit's story? I had no idea he was a catch wrestler. Here he is fighting Guy Mezger:

 

 

Gregory smit was either laughably bad at catch/pancrase or he was taking dives for all of these guys because he got jobbed every time except for Vernon the tiger white. 

I did some googling since I asked this question. I guess he trained directly with Gotch for a few months and that's why he's seen as a legit source of catch.

In reality he's not very good, but he's as legit as it comes (in terms of catch) where i am, maybe chris haseman actually now that i think about it

9/10/20 2:01 AM
9/14/13
Posts: 6994
HillboFrateTrane -
blabbermouth -
flemingo -

I never liked curran,

I'm a catch fan but i only ever learned bjj, the only catch school near me (in australia) was not remotely legit

I'm looking for who i consider to be the only legit modern catch guy in all of australia Greg Smit, but insofar, the search has been fruitless

 

What's Greg Smit's story? I had no idea he was a catch wrestler. Here he is fighting Guy Mezger:

 

 

Gregory smit was either laughably bad at catch/pancrase or he was taking dives for all of these guys because he got jobbed every time except for Vernon the tiger white. 

you shut your whore mouth about the great one

9/10/20 12:21 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 754
flemingo -
blabbermouth -
HillboFrateTrane -
blabbermouth -
flemingo -

I never liked curran,

I'm a catch fan but i only ever learned bjj, the only catch school near me (in australia) was not remotely legit

I'm looking for who i consider to be the only legit modern catch guy in all of australia Greg Smit, but insofar, the search has been fruitless

 

What's Greg Smit's story? I had no idea he was a catch wrestler. Here he is fighting Guy Mezger:

 

 

Gregory smit was either laughably bad at catch/pancrase or he was taking dives for all of these guys because he got jobbed every time except for Vernon the tiger white. 

I did some googling since I asked this question. I guess he trained directly with Gotch for a few months and that's why he's seen as a legit source of catch.

In reality he's not very good, but he's as legit as it comes (in terms of catch) where i am, maybe chris haseman actually now that i think about it

Holy shit, I'm such a Fedor fanboy that I'm in awe that you know Chris Haseman.

9/11/20 7:38 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 10590
blabbermouth - 
flemingo -

I never liked curran,

I'm a catch fan but i only ever learned bjj, the only catch school near me (in australia) was not remotely legit

I'm looking for who i consider to be the only legit modern catch guy in all of australia Greg Smit, but insofar, the search has been fruitless

 

What's Greg Smit's story? I had no idea he was a catch wrestler. Here he is fighting Guy Mezger:

 

 


I trained with Greg for about 2 years back in 2000ish, he was helping our BJJ get ready for Pancrase. Last I heard he was in Jail, but he was a really super nice guy and had nasty subs. I saw him tap some very solid Purple belts with leg locks when they tangled legs with him.

Overall his game was pretty raw (like most Gotch/Pancrase people) and very painful (front face lock etc) and he had some good amateur wrestling locally before. He was very technical at teaching the leg attacks particularly, WAY ahead of the curve.

9/13/20 4:59 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 3976

The submissions in catch historically were mostly only subs if the guy refused to turn over & get pinned. People often think of catch like sub grappling and it isn't that. At all.
It's wrestling for a pin. Chokes werent allowed & moves like toe holds were done to force a guy to roll to his back so u can spin him.
When a guys turtled they put a shin on your ankle and pull your toes. Which can maybe be a sub if I'm unwilling to go to my back but otherwise it is not a sub.
Catch is just dirty wrestling.
And wrestling IS pretty dirty so it's really not that different.
And what leglocks are even relevant if u lose if u are pinned?
If we are in a scramble and I look for a leg I'll wind up on my back and lose.
Mostly the leglocks will only be done on someone that is using turtle and there aren't all that many options.
Even if I do a crotch ripper or a calf sliced as u turtle It will often get me pinned so it's easier to try n roll u.
Catch wrestling is already a major sport that is called wrestling.
People make way too much out of the minor differences.

Edited: 9/15/20 1:02 PM
9/20/19
Posts: 4631
Bill Mahoney - The submissions in catch historically were mostly only subs if the guy refused to turn over & get pinned. People often think of catch like sub grappling and it isn't that. At all.
It's wrestling for a pin. Chokes werent allowed & moves like toe holds were done to force a guy to roll to his back so u can spin him.
When a guys turtled they put a shin on your ankle and pull your toes. Which can maybe be a sub if I'm unwilling to go to my back but otherwise it is not a sub.
Catch is just dirty wrestling.
And wrestling IS pretty dirty so it's really not that different.
And what leglocks are even relevant if u lose if u are pinned?
If we are in a scramble and I look for a leg I'll wind up on my back and lose.
Mostly the leglocks will only be done on someone that is using turtle and there aren't all that many options.
Even if I do a crotch ripper or a calf sliced as u turtle It will often get me pinned so it's easier to try n roll u.
Catch wrestling is already a major sport that is called wrestling.
People make way too much out of the minor differences.

It’s it’s amazing how many completely legit athletes have resulted from all of this revisionist history of what was essentially carnyism. BJJ, the traveling judo masters and the hookers. 

9/15/20 11:28 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 3981

It really is.
And it's amazing anyone cares about the history of catch, bjj or even judo. When in truth it ALL comes from Irish Collar & elbow wrestling.

9/16/20 1:22 AM
9/14/13
Posts: 7000
Bill Mahoney -

It really is.
And it's amazing anyone cares about the history of catch, bjj or even judo. When in truth it ALL comes from Irish Collar & elbow wrestling.

I've got pictures of a dude putting another in a double wristlock from a cambodian temple and a centaur heelhooking a dude from a greek bronze. Saying it all comes from collar and elbow is overly reductive, unless thats what you were going for

9/16/20 2:19 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13413
kingabiu -
de braco - 
oblongo -

Some footage from the 1937 NCAA nationaal wrestling championship. No back points then. (No points at all, actually. If a match didn't end in a pin, the ref awarded it to the wrestler who spent the most time in control. If that wasn't obvious, it went to the wrestler who was most active).

 

Anyway, this isn't catch, but it's catch derived and closer to the source than modern freestyl or folk and it's interesting how things look without the modern rules but with some high-level athletes and coaching.

 

that is CACC, folk is CACC. Prior to Lancashire and collar and elbow being brought to the states there were no submission holds at all, People like farmer burns, toots mondt, Ad Santel, pink gardener, john pesek, etc combined the submissions of jiudo and the handa s.t.y.l.e(this fucking place with the c.l.a.s,s &s.t.y.l.e) of match jiu jitsu with the leg rides and ground work of lancashire into CACC. Lancashire did use the kimura but it was more of a spin down and pin as opposed to a straight sub, the same with the keylock, and the kimura appears nowhere in any japanese book before the fusion, the americana appears nowhere in folk/CACC before the japanese. Almost any kind of leglock was called a japanese leg lock and the jujigatame was called the japanese armbar, toots was really good with juji to the point of it being called a toots bar


"the kimura appears nowhere in any japanese book before the fusion"

What are you saying there? Are you saying he learned it from some western wrestling style, rather than a Japanese jiu-jitsu ryu?

Ude-garami is a feature in the katame-no-kata, which Kano developed from 1884.

the kimura isn't featured in any judo or handa jiu-jitsu book before 1920, it's in every CACC book or article. The americana/top is in every judo/handa book and in no CACC literature. Maybe it is in a kata from 84, that's still way after japan was opened at gunpoint to the west. I know to judo people this is sacrilege as kano invented everything but the lightbulb, the same as helio with the humaita branch of bjj. The kimura in bjj was originally called the americana and the top was the french armbar, in all likelyhood named for the french jiudoka, medhi. The top was renamed the americana to honor bob anderson, and also to probably to cut out any future reference to judo and medhi at the same time. Two birds with one stone. BTW the newaza isn't kano's thng either, that only came about in order to stop losing to tanabe and handa

9/16/20 2:23 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13414
Bill Mahoney -

It really is.
And it's amazing anyone cares about the history of catch, bjj or even judo. When in truth it ALL comes from Irish Collar & elbow wrestling.

CACC is almost completely C&E, largely of the American variety, which was often conducted without the straps. The scufflers of Vermont were very influential. The major gyms in wigan were all ran by irishmen. With Riley and Charnock being the most famous

9/16/20 6:13 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 3983

See? Even when I try to be wrong... I'm still accidentally right.

9/16/20 7:46 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13415

Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in a while 

9/17/20 1:36 AM
7/14/08
Posts: 25430
Bill Mahoney -

It really is.
And it's amazing anyone cares about the history of catch, bjj or even judo. When in truth it ALL comes from Irish Collar & elbow wrestling.

Not many know this, but an intoxicated Irish collar and elbow wrestler named Seamus Kenney once fell off a British cargo ship and washed ashore in Japan. He met a wee man named Kano and taught him collar and elbow wrestling with and without the jacket. Sadly, he discovered Sake and went on a bender such that he disappeared from history. Kano named it Judo after the sound Seamus made every morning clearing his throat from the previous nights smoking and drinking.

 

The full history will be revealed in my forthcoming E-Book:” The Secret History Of Judo and Jiutisu: From Tyrone to Tokyo”

9/17/20 12:33 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 774

Edited: 9/17/20 12:37 PM
2/2/12
Posts: 4890
Cale -

Posted this on the UG. But it's a lovely story, so I'll repost here: 

 

I once trained with some Catch Wrestlers in Singapore. I was a BJJ 2-Stripe White Belt by rank at the time, about 3-Stripe White Belt by skill (It was about 1 year after I got my 2nd Stripe, but I had moved country so I hadn't gotten settled in a gym enough to get promoted, but I was training regularly), about 1.5 years of BJJ training total. Some wrestling training as part of MMA Gym >

 

I sparred with guys who admitedly had been training for six years. I tapped them all in less than a minute (towards the end one roll took about 3 minutes, but it was a guy I tapped twice previously, so I was in chill mode). Whats more embarrassing is the coach spent the prior to the live sparring teaching ways to counter Jiu Jitsu, using me as the Uke and openly telling the that I was a BJJ practicioner. Furthermore, the way they rolled that day was two people spar, while the whole watches and the coach gives tips to the gym members (not me). There were about 9 rolls that day, I participated in 7, so 7 rolls were the entire watching me humiliate one of their 6-years+ trained members. So it was essentailly a shark tank, I got almost no rest, while having to face a fresh opponent each time. The system was, the roll ends after one submission, short break, then next roll. 

 

Their instincts were 1-stripe white belt at best. None provided much resistance. Im talking about them sticking both arms up to push me away while I had them mounted - resulting in easy armbars. Furthermore, they tapped very early. They would tap to armbars before I even had their arm fully extended, they tapped to RNCs before I even locked in the support hand (pretty much unintentional one-handed RNCs). The most trouble I ever got in was a half decent Omoplata attempt, that I front rolled out of (no arm on my back) and finished him with a RNC about 15 seconds later. 

 

Furthermore, their Wrestling was awful. I took all of them down with Single or Double Legs (which is even worse considering we started on our knees). None took me down. 

 

Albiet this gym was later featured on McDojoLife, though not for bullshit techniques, but more for a brutal initiation process (2-on-1 beating). Im not surprised, a few times when I tapped them, the coach would loudly criticise the member for the whole to hear. E.g. "This is because you guys dont train hard enough", or "That armbar set up was so obvious"

 

FYI the Coach/ Gym is Tony Cecchine Certified as well as Gracie Jiu Jitsu Certified (a Rener product most likely). But the training, and the coach's attitude was very Catch Wrestling based. He actually talked to me previous to the starting about how catch wrestling is beneficial because of the many "real world" disadvantages of Jiu Jitsu. Also the gym offered "Catch Wrestling" and no Jiu Jitsu >

 

Further FYI, I didn't outweigh any of the guys I rolled with. I was about the same weight as their lightest guy, and the two others were heavier. One was wider. The other was same build as me but maybe 2-3 inches taller. 

Still don't believe you. There are crappy grapplers claiming to be catch wrestlers but your story sounds like something a two stripe white belt would spout after 6 beers.

9/17/20 12:36 PM
2/2/12
Posts: 4891
MickColins -
Bill Mahoney -

It really is.
And it's amazing anyone cares about the history of catch, bjj or even judo. When in truth it ALL comes from Irish Collar & elbow wrestling.

Not many know this, but an intoxicated Irish collar and elbow wrestler named Seamus Kenney once fell off a British cargo ship and washed ashore in Japan. He met a wee man named Kano and taught him collar and elbow wrestling with and without the jacket. Sadly, he discovered Sake and went on a bender such that he disappeared from history. Kano named it Judo after the sound Seamus made every morning clearing his throat from the previous nights smoking and drinking.

 

The full history will be revealed in my forthcoming E-Book:” The Secret History Of Judo and Jiutisu: From Tyrone to Tokyo”

This made me laugh. Well done.