David Jacobs' BJJGround Catch wrestling world champ vs bjj

9/7/20 10:11 AM
7/30/03
Posts: 9050

 Anybody know the story behind this? 

9/7/20 11:47 AM
5/11/08
Posts: 2768

The video explains things quite well. World Champion catch wrestler has been calling out DDS for years and claiming he would wreck them. Finally has a match vs an unknown 10th planet guy and gets wrecked, including getting leg locked. He looked fairly lost on the ground and didn't seem to have much of an idea of how to pass guard. 

9/7/20 12:19 PM
3/7/20
Posts: 24

Posted this on the UG. But it's a lovely story, so I'll repost here: 

 

I once trained with some Catch Wrestlers in Singapore. I was a BJJ 2-Stripe White Belt by rank at the time, about 3-Stripe White Belt by skill (It was about 1 year after I got my 2nd Stripe, but I had moved country so I hadn't gotten settled in a gym enough to get promoted, but I was training regularly), about 1.5 years of BJJ training total. Some wrestling training as part of MMA Gym >

 

I sparred with guys who admitedly had been training for six years. I tapped them all in less than a minute (towards the end one roll took about 3 minutes, but it was a guy I tapped twice previously, so I was in chill mode). Whats more embarrassing is the coach spent the prior to the live sparring teaching ways to counter Jiu Jitsu, using me as the Uke and openly telling the that I was a BJJ practicioner. Furthermore, the way they rolled that day was two people spar, while the whole watches and the coach gives tips to the gym members (not me). There were about 9 rolls that day, I participated in 7, so 7 rolls were the entire watching me humiliate one of their 6-years+ trained members. So it was essentailly a shark tank, I got almost no rest, while having to face a fresh opponent each time. The system was, the roll ends after one submission, short break, then next roll. 

 

Their instincts were 1-stripe white belt at best. None provided much resistance. Im talking about them sticking both arms up to push me away while I had them mounted - resulting in easy armbars. Furthermore, they tapped very early. They would tap to armbars before I even had their arm fully extended, they tapped to RNCs before I even locked in the support hand (pretty much unintentional one-handed RNCs). The most trouble I ever got in was a half decent Omoplata attempt, that I front rolled out of (no arm on my back) and finished him with a RNC about 15 seconds later. 

 

Furthermore, their Wrestling was awful. I took all of them down with Single or Double Legs (which is even worse considering we started on our knees). None took me down. 

 

Albiet this gym was later featured on McDojoLife, though not for bullshit techniques, but more for a brutal initiation process (2-on-1 beating). Im not surprised, a few times when I tapped them, the coach would loudly criticise the member for the whole to hear. E.g. "This is because you guys dont train hard enough", or "That armbar set up was so obvious"

 

FYI the Coach/ Gym is Tony Cecchine Certified as well as Gracie Jiu Jitsu Certified (a Rener product most likely). But the training, and the coach's attitude was very Catch Wrestling based. He actually talked to me previous to the starting about how catch wrestling is beneficial because of the many "real world" disadvantages of Jiu Jitsu. Also the gym offered "Catch Wrestling" and no Jiu Jitsu >

 

Further FYI, I didn't outweigh any of the guys I rolled with. I was about the same weight as their lightest guy, and the two others were heavier. One was wider. The other was same build as me but maybe 2-3 inches taller. 

9/7/20 12:28 PM
8/20/16
Posts: 749

Is Curran Jacobs the actor who won a catch tournament and then was calling out Josh Barnett for years?

9/7/20 12:56 PM
3/15/15
Posts: 13686
The problem is that the REAL modern catch guys (for the most part with a couple of exceptions) are not in North America or England - they are in Japan. The real top fighters are there simply because the old style catch forms the base of the professional catch and shoot wrestling styles there that are very dynamic, and athletic.
The Gotch influenced fighters like Sakuraba, Gomi, Aoki, and their more modern incarnates would not perform like this guy and would have given one hell of as battle - won or lose.

Further, the catch wrestlers of old (early to mid 1900s) came from a strong tough guy carnival wrestler tradition which is why catch wrestler Santel beat all (but one) Judoka from Japan that were sent to face him.
9/7/20 3:51 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 13346

ito beat ad many times, in fact most of the submissions in catch came from ad working with the jiudoka and toots working with handa guys like taro miyake. Billy Robinson probably had as much to do with the japanese success as karl did, karl did produce tiger mask and fujiwara though, both of whom had a major impact on mma

9/7/20 4:05 PM
3/15/15
Posts: 13696
de braco - 

ito beat ad many times, in fact most of the submissions in catch came from ad working with the jiudoka and toots working with handa guys like taro miyake. Billy Robinson probably had as much to do with the japanese success as karl did, karl did produce tiger mask and fujiwara though, both of whom had a major impact on mma


I agree, there was a definite exchange and there were distinctions and refinements over time. The Lancashire style guys were just violent from what I have heard and even did now-banned submissions like finger locks, etc. I think a big distinction was the in general catch styles usually minimzed used of chokes, at least early on. And there is the huge crossover into pro wrestling too which changed how it was trained and used. I think another big difference (and you can really see this in how submissions are applied and used) is that catch styles generally used "submissions" moreas compliance manouvers, turnovers, and threats rathers that finishing moves if you know what I mean. But really, when you look into it, the ways to win (some were just pinning) and rules seem to be inconsistent and changed quite frequently.

but these are all musings. In the 1990s I knew someone who reserached folk wrestling styles around the world and owned some obscure documents. It would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the history of catch.

I haven't read mkuch on Ito beyond that, but it would be interesting to see what other matches he had as I know he had many with others.
Edited: 9/7/20 5:04 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39101

Look, the level of BJJ in the U.S. is just MUCH higher than the level of Catch Wrestling.

Jake from Scientific Wrestling and those guys who have been trying to bring Catch back are really more grappling "enthusiasts" rather than high level competetive grapplers & coaches.

There is lots of GREAT stuff in Catch and if we had high level Catch schools everywhere, things might be different. But, these days, the quality & quantity of BJJ is just much higher across the board.
9/7/20 5:14 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9061
shen -
Look, the level of BJJ in the U.S. is just MUCH higher than the level of Catch Wrestling.

Jake from Scientific Wrestling and those guys who have been trying to bring Catch back are really more grappling "enthusiasts" rather than high level competetive grapplers & coaches.

There is lots of GREAT stuff in Catch and if we had high level Catch schools everywhere, things might be different. But, these days, the quality & quantity of BJJ is just much higher across the board.

I am sure the level of bjj is higher but the question I have is is there any place in the world that has a level of catch that can handle the guard of bjj practitioners today or has there ever been anyone throughout history that can handle the guard of the bjj practitioners of today.

 

Is it fair to say that the lack of the guard is where catch falls short as an individual art? I think it is fair to say that a catch guy needs to study bjj. Grappling on the ground is majority of the time spent in the guard position. Paulson, Barnett, as well as Sakuraba, etc. Have studied the guard extensively, but even they are likely not up to date with the guard level used today in competative grappling.

9/7/20 5:21 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9062

The rules of a sport make a lot of difference in the development of the art also.

 

As long as the sport of catch has rules that allow the guard player to be pinned and lose the guard will likely never be developed to such a dgree that it has in bjj. The catch guys learn to wrestle their way back to the top.

9/7/20 5:24 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39103
Calhoon - 
shen -
Look, the level of BJJ in the U.S. is just MUCH higher than the level of Catch Wrestling.

Jake from Scientific Wrestling and those guys who have been trying to bring Catch back are really more grappling "enthusiasts" rather than high level competetive grapplers & coaches.

There is lots of GREAT stuff in Catch and if we had high level Catch schools everywhere, things might be different. But, these days, the quality & quantity of BJJ is just much higher across the board.

I am sure the level of bjj is higher but the question I have is is there any place in the world that has a level of catch that can handle the guard of bjj practitioners today or has there ever been anyone throughout history that can handle the guard of the bjj practitioners of today.

 

Is it fair to say that the lack of the guard is where catch falls short as an individual art? I think it is fair to say that a catch guy needs to study bjj. Grappling on the ground is majority of the time spent in the guard position. Paulson, Barnett, as well as Sakuraba, etc. Have studied the guard extensively, but even they are likely not up to date with the guard level used today in competative grappling.


The "guard" does exist in catch, it just isn't as well developed.

Depending on the rules, I believe you could get a pin when INSIDE someone's guard. So because of the rules, Guard doesn't make as much sense in Catch.

It all depends on the rules; if you have rules that favor BJJ or rules that favor Catch.

As a Brown Belt, I won a "mixed rules tournament" in San diego that counted pins as submissions. You could see there were BJJ guys who were not "ready" for that aspect of the tournament. So, again, it's all about the rules.

9/7/20 5:27 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39104
^ So, Josh Barnett obviously can deal with guard. Some others guys too, I would bet --I don't know names-- I am not up on it, but there is lots of cross-training today.
9/7/20 5:34 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9063
shen -
Calhoon - 
shen -
Look, the level of BJJ in the U.S. is just MUCH higher than the level of Catch Wrestling.

Jake from Scientific Wrestling and those guys who have been trying to bring Catch back are really more grappling "enthusiasts" rather than high level competetive grapplers & coaches.

There is lots of GREAT stuff in Catch and if we had high level Catch schools everywhere, things might be different. But, these days, the quality & quantity of BJJ is just much higher across the board.

I am sure the level of bjj is higher but the question I have is is there any place in the world that has a level of catch that can handle the guard of bjj practitioners today or has there ever been anyone throughout history that can handle the guard of the bjj practitioners of today.

 

Is it fair to say that the lack of the guard is where catch falls short as an individual art? I think it is fair to say that a catch guy needs to study bjj. Grappling on the ground is majority of the time spent in the guard position. Paulson, Barnett, as well as Sakuraba, etc. Have studied the guard extensively, but even they are likely not up to date with the guard level used today in competative grappling.


The "guard" does exist in catch, it just isn't as well developed.

Depending on the rules, I believe you could get a pin when INSIDE someone's guard. So because of the rules, Guard doesn't make as much sense in Catch.

It all depends on the rules; if you have rules that favor BJJ or rules that favor Catch.

As a Brown Belt, I won a "mixed rules tournament" in San diego that counted pins as submissions. You could see there were BJJ guys who were not "ready" for that aspect of the tournament. So, again, it's all about the rules.

Yeah that was my thinking.

 

I believe that to be the best grappler you can be it is a good idea to be able to fight offensively from both on top and on bottom and even if you are a top player who is good enough and big enough to be on top a high majority of the time, you still need to know and have plenty of experience on how to deal with a guard player. 

9/7/20 5:38 PM
7/30/03
Posts: 9064
shen - ^ So, Josh Barnett obviously can deal with guard. Some others guys too, I would bet --I don't know names-- I am not up on it, but there is lots of cross-training today.

Yeah Barnett is a bjj black belt and he trains with guard players a lot no doubt. This guy Curren probably cross trains as well but just saying I doubt he deals with good guard players like the bjj guys do. And as mentioned, such a high percentage of grappling on the ground is done in the guard position when both fighters are aware of and play good guard games. It is a required position to know on both top and bottom if you are going to be in mixed styIe competitions.

9/7/20 8:36 PM
5/11/08
Posts: 2770
shen -
Look, the level of BJJ in the U.S. is just MUCH higher than the level of Catch Wrestling.

Jake from Scientific Wrestling and those guys who have been trying to bring Catch back are really more grappling "enthusiasts" rather than high level competetive grapplers & coaches.

There is lots of GREAT stuff in Catch and if we had high level Catch schools everywhere, things might be different. But, these days, the quality & quantity of BJJ is just much higher across the board.

The issue is that Jacobs was a legitimate collegiate wrestler, so he was not just some hobbyist who came off the couch and decided to try catch wrestling without any grappling background as an adult. Apparently he was a two time NCAA Qualifier at Michigan State. He's been training catch for a while so a guy like him should be the perfect representative of what catch can produce these days. 

Seeing how he performed in the video above, I think it's fairly obvious he would be a better grappler if he'd have spent his time at a good bjj school instead. Certainly he has no business calling out high level bjj guys or thinking he can compete in ADCC.

Edited: 9/7/20 9:16 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39111
FWIW, I just watched the 2014 Catch World Championship and some matches from 2018.

Out of 17 matches that ended in submission, the breakdown was:

9 RNCs
4 armbars from top
1 standing guillotine
1 Americana
1 wrist lock
1 Crossface neck crank

A couple observations...

There was NOTHING fancy being pulled off, at all. No leg locks or interesting "catch style" submissions. It was only very basic stuff that worked.

Their standup was better than a typical BJJ tournament.

Even though the main sub was the RNC, they were generally not very good at setting it up. Very sloppy for the most part. Like they would fall straight back and then throw the hooks in.

There was almost zero guard or half guard work at all.

Lots of Turtle and riding.

The fall rule was in effect so a pin counted as a partial win. I think you need 2 or 3 falls to win. Not sure.

You could tell who wrestled and who didn't and it made a big differnce.

Kinda hate to say it, but I agree these guys would probably be a little better off doing BJJ, at least on the ground.
9/7/20 9:16 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 4128
Calhoon -

The rules of a sport make a lot of difference in the development of the art also.

 

As long as the sport of catch has rules that allow the guard player to be pinned and lose the guard will likely never be developed to such a dgree that it has in bjj. The catch guys learn to wrestle their way back to the top.

The problem with catch is that no one does it, so there is no depth to the level of competition. Instead the few people trying to make money off of catch try to portray it as some esoteric art that could easily defeat Jiu-Jitsu but this just cheapens the positives it has, which as with all grappling arts, come from the rules. Really all grappling is the same, it’s just a function of the rules like you say. But catch comes off like a martial arts role playing renaissance fair. 

Edited: 9/7/20 9:24 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 39112
^ I agree. I am very much in the "grappling is grappling" camp anyway.

You can call it whatever style you want want, but if you are going for submissions, it's submission grappling/ no gi BJJ / Luta Live / catch... whatever, it really boils down to the same kinda things that tend to work. The rules are the big factor.

You go to a karate tournament and there are 100 styles there, but when people spar, it's pretty hard to guess who's who. They're all playing the same game.
9/7/20 9:50 PM
5/11/08
Posts: 2771

I completely agree with the "grappling is grappling" statement Shen. The problem I have with catch is that they seem to spend so much time shitting on bjj and arguing how catch is better, and not learning from it. 

Say what you will about sport bjj, but the fact it's as big as it is has meant that bjj has had to adopt what works from every other grappling in order for the athletes to stay competitive. These days there are a lot of guys who wrestled who do bjj so the amount of wrestling incorporated within bjj has never been higher. It may not be visible when you're watching the start of a match and a guy sits guard, but it's very evident in how the sweeping game has evolved. A lot of open guard work consists of off balancing someone and then coming up on a double or single. The half guard underhook game is basically wrestling. Etc. 

Edited: 9/7/20 10:09 PM
2/27/08
Posts: 2082

Does this of guard passing ever work?




https://i.imgur.com/8TOfr5N


edit: gif won't post. don't know why.

9/7/20 10:17 PM
4/20/02
Posts: 10050

Some footage from the 1937 NCAA nationaal wrestling championship. No back points then. (No points at all, actually. If a match didn't end in a pin, the ref awarded it to the wrestler who spent the most time in control. If that wasn't obvious, it went to the wrestler who was most active).

 

Anyway, this isn't catch, but it's catch derived and closer to the source than modern freestyl or folk and it's interesting how things look without the modern rules but with some high-level athletes and coaching.

 

9/8/20 12:23 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 39120
Red Stuff - 

Does this of guard passing ever work?




https://i.imgur.com/8TOfr5N


edit: gif won't post. don't know why.


It shouldn't work. Like anything, once is a while, it does I suppose.

He passes guard like a wrestler. Obviously he is not very highly skilled in guard passing.
Edited: 9/8/20 1:55 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13357
oblongo -

Some footage from the 1937 NCAA nationaal wrestling championship. No back points then. (No points at all, actually. If a match didn't end in a pin, the ref awarded it to the wrestler who spent the most time in control. If that wasn't obvious, it went to the wrestler who was most active).

 

Anyway, this isn't catch, but it's catch derived and closer to the source than modern freestyl or folk and it's interesting how things look without the modern rules but with some high-level athletes and coaching.

 

that is CACC, folk is CACC. Prior to Lancashire and collar and elbow being brought to the states there were no submission holds at all, People like farmer burns, toots mondt, Ad Santel, pink gardener, john pesek, etc combined the submissions of jiudo and the handa s.t.y.l.e(this fucking place with the c.l.a.s,s &s.t.y.l.e) of match jiu jitsu with the leg rides and ground work of lancashire into CACC. Lancashire did use the kimura but it was more of a spin down and pin as opposed to a straight sub, the same with the keylock, and the kimura appears nowhere in any japanese book before the fusion, the americana appears nowhere in folk/CACC before the japanese. Almost any kind of leglock was called a japanese leg lock and the jujigatame was called the japanese armbar, toots was really good with juji to the point of it being called a toots bar

Edited: 9/8/20 1:58 AM
1/1/01
Posts: 13358

ye olde toots bar with the feet crossed. LOL Crazy old toots, and i've never heard of this curran kid

9/8/20 8:05 AM
9/14/13
Posts: 6988

I never liked curran,

I'm a catch fan but i only ever learned bjj, the only catch school near me (in australia) was not remotely legit

I'm looking for who i consider to be the only legit modern catch guy in all of australia Greg Smit, but insofar, the search has been fruitless