David Jacobs' BJJGround Check out this Double Attack from Fabricio Werdum

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8468

 

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 18584

Very nice!

18 days ago
7/10/09
Posts: 890

All respects to Werdum and Renaldi but what I get out of this is how much lower the skill level of heavyweight grapplers is compared to the lighter weights.  That just seems like too basic a set up to catch a decent purple belt much less someone competing at ADCC.

No doubt either of them going 50% smash me but come on...

18 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 18585

Lol @ all respect but they're purple belt level skill wise.  That's 0 respect.

17 days ago
7/10/09
Posts: 891
deepu -

Lol @ all respect but they're purple belt level skill wise.  That's 0 respect.

They are not purple belt level.  The setup is 'purple belt level'.  There is a trade off with size/strength to technique/skill.  Im sure Werdum could americana me all day anyway he wants to without need of a setup, he is one of the all time best and you could make an argument for all time best bjj guys.

What Im saying is for that setup to work at a high level, you need to be a heavyweight.  That setup is not working if its two good guys under 200lbs of comparable skill.

17 days ago
7/10/09
Posts: 892

After rereading my posts, I see how it sounds disrespectful and that was not my intention.

What I mean to point out, and it may still come off disrespectful, is that there is an obvious skill vs size curve in jiu jitsu.

The bigger/stronger you are the less nuance you need to succesfully pull off a technique.  This isnt groundbreaking stuff im discussing here.  There is a natural trade off as well.  It is more difficult for bigger guys to achieve the same level of technical proficiency as smaller guys because they dont reap the same amount of data from improper/failed technique.

That is what makes guys like Werdum great.  They achieve a very high level of skill despite the steeper learning curve.

Thinking about it more, it isnt the set up I take issue with.  Its the sloppy defense on bottom by Renaldi.  Yes, its Fabricio Werdum on top of him but it just looks like he doesnt have a lot of mat time with someone his own size riding him.  Who gets Americana'd?  So yeah, I guess I am talking shit.  Shame on me.

17 days ago
2/28/03
Posts: 47673

If the curve is so great then why do the big guys still win absolutes 

17 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 18588

N5Z, there's a lot of skill in knowing how to crush and control.  It's not just about being strong and heavy.  Lighter guys are more mobile and develop their skills there, but don't underestimate the skills involved in controlling beasts.  

Edited: 17 days ago
7/10/09
Posts: 893
checkuroil -

If the curve is so great then why do the big guys still win absolutes 

Big guys usually win the absolutes because they are big.  A very good big guy will usually beat a great smaller guy.  Its why they have weight classes.

 

Do you think your jiu jitsu would be as effective if you were 170lbs?  

16 days ago
11/2/12
Posts: 296
N5Z -
checkuroil -

If the curve is so great then why do the big guys still win absolutes 

Big guys usually win the absolutes because they are big.  A very good big guy will usually beat a great smaller guy.  Its why they have weight classes.

 

Do you think your jiu jitsu would be as effective if you were 170lbs?  

How well would those little guys move if they had the additional weight ? How well would those big guys move if they shrunk a few weight classes ? There’s a lot of nunances big guys do that’s lost to the eye . They have to be efficient with movement more so than the little guy because it takes much more oxygen to fuel the body . 

Edited: 14 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35011
Because of the strength-to-weight ratio changing as you move up in weight classes, few and fewer moves will work at all.

There are a lot of BJJ sweeps that simply don't work for super heavyweights because they work with a fairly modest amount of leverage and when you get into those top weight players, the opponent's weight supersedes the leverage offered by the sweep. [Again, changes in strength-to-weight ratio, change the game].

You see fewer techniques at the highest weights because so many techniques are, realistically, out the window.The technique is different,it's almost like a different sport --and this is true in all combat sports; there is absolutely "big boy" Judo & "big boy" wrestling and it is DIFFERENT than what you see at lightweight because it has to be.

If you start training 280lbs guys in so-called "good technique" for a lightweight, a lot of it just won't translate. Many times even just the grips and controls common at lightweight, are literally impossible for a 300+lb guy to do on a similarly sized person.

So, Lightweights have appropriate technique for lightweights and super heavyweights have appropriate technique for super heavyweights. Direct comparison doesn't really make sense.

A super heavyweight looks at lightweights rolling and asks, "How come none of these guys can hold any one down? Their pins are terrible --it looks like two roosters fighting." But, again, due to the differences in strength-to-weight, it's a lot easier for lightweights to escape pins and move their opponent's body weight around than it is for super heavyweights to do the same.
13 days ago
12/6/02
Posts: 708

great post Shen thanks

13 days ago
7/10/09
Posts: 897
shen - Because of the strength-to-weight ratio changing as you move up in weight classes, few and fewer moves will work at all.

There are a lot of BJJ sweeps that simply don't work for super heavyweights because they work with a fairly modest amount of leverage and when you get into those top weight players, the opponent's weight supersedes the leverage offered by the sweep. [Again, changes in strength-to-weight ratio, change the game].

You see fewer techniques at the highest weights because so many techniques are, realistically, out the window.The technique is different,it's almost like a different sport --and this is true in all combat sports; there is absolutely "big boy" Judo & "big boy" wrestling and it is DIFFERENT than what you see at lightweight because it has to be.

If you start training 280lbs guys in so-called "good technique" for a lightweight, a lot of it just won't translate. Many times even just the grips and controls common at lightweight, are literally impossible for a 300+lb guy to do on a similarly sized person.

So, Lightweights have appropriate technique for lightweights and super heavyweights have appropriate technique for super heavyweights. Direct comparison doesn't really make sense.

A super heavyweight looks at lightweights rolling and asks, "How come none of these guys can hold any one down? Their pins are terrible --it looks like two roosters fighting." But, again, due to the differences in strength-to-weight, it's a lot easier for lightweights to escape pins and move their opponent's body weight around than it is for super heavyweights to do the same.

Ok, then using your reasoning would it be fair to say "Heavyweights are less technical than lighter weights"?

12 days ago
3/27/14
Posts: 411
shen - Because of the strength-to-weight ratio changing as you move up in weight classes, few and fewer moves will work at all.

There are a lot of BJJ sweeps that simply don't work for super heavyweights because they work with a fairly modest amount of leverage and when you get into those top weight players, the opponent's weight supersedes the leverage offered by the sweep. [Again, changes in strength-to-weight ratio, change the game].

You see fewer techniques at the highest weights because so many techniques are, realistically, out the window.The technique is different,it's almost like a different sport --and this is true in all combat sports; there is absolutely "big boy" Judo & "big boy" wrestling and it is DIFFERENT than what you see at lightweight because it has to be.

If you start training 280lbs guys in so-called "good technique" for a lightweight, a lot of it just won't translate. Many times even just the grips and controls common at lightweight, are literally impossible for a 300+lb guy to do on a similarly sized person.

So, Lightweights have appropriate technique for lightweights and super heavyweights have appropriate technique for super heavyweights. Direct comparison doesn't really make sense.

A super heavyweight looks at lightweights rolling and asks, "How come none of these guys can hold any one down? Their pins are terrible --it looks like two roosters fighting." But, again, due to the differences in strength-to-weight, it's a lot easier for lightweights to escape pins and move their opponent's body weight around than it is for super heavyweights to do the same.

^^This. 100%

12 days ago
11/13/09
Posts: 3296

Also interesting to note that the biggest guys rarely win the absolute.  If size was all that matters mr ultra mega heavyweight wins it everytime.  I think it's not a horribly unfiar thing to say that when the 270 lbs guys get put on their back they are not as technically proficient as the guys that are a bit lighter.  They just don't have the reps against other bigger strong high level guys because there aren't as many.

12 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35033
N5Z - 
shen - Because of the strength-to-weight ratio changing as you move up in weight classes, few and fewer moves will work at all.

There are a lot of BJJ sweeps that simply don't work for super heavyweights because they work with a fairly modest amount of leverage and when you get into those top weight players, the opponent's weight supersedes the leverage offered by the sweep. [Again, changes in strength-to-weight ratio, change the game].

You see fewer techniques at the highest weights because so many techniques are, realistically, out the window.The technique is different,it's almost like a different sport --and this is true in all combat sports; there is absolutely "big boy" Judo & "big boy" wrestling and it is DIFFERENT than what you see at lightweight because it has to be.

If you start training 280lbs guys in so-called "good technique" for a lightweight, a lot of it just won't translate. Many times even just the grips and controls common at lightweight, are literally impossible for a 300+lb guy to do on a similarly sized person.

So, Lightweights have appropriate technique for lightweights and super heavyweights have appropriate technique for super heavyweights. Direct comparison doesn't really make sense.

A super heavyweight looks at lightweights rolling and asks, "How come none of these guys can hold any one down? Their pins are terrible --it looks like two roosters fighting." But, again, due to the differences in strength-to-weight, it's a lot easier for lightweights to escape pins and move their opponent's body weight around than it is for super heavyweights to do the same.

Ok, then using your reasoning would it be fair to say "Heavyweights are less technical than lighter weights"?


No.

Lightweights play like lightweights & super heavyweights play like super heavyweights, is what I am saying.

I learned to wrestle in HS at 126lbs.

Many years later, in my 30's at about 230-240, I started to learn straight wrestling again. I was trying to shoot Double Legs, which is the man thing I recall fro H.S. The coach said, "What are you doing? Heavyweight don't do that"

I was like, "Well what should I do?

He taught me to basically walk up to the guy & tie up. Try to dominate the clinch and attack from there. Shooting Double legs,in general, is a bigger risk for big guys than it is for lightweights.

I'm like, "Oh... OK."

I was trying to wrestle like a skinny,fast guy which is what I was in H.S. He taught me about wrestling as a heavyweight.

Different game. Similar with BJJ. Different strategies tend to dominate at different weight classes for a reason.
12 days ago
4/5/07
Posts: 10400

Interesting discussion.  When I started BJJ, I was 320 lbs (I'm 6'1" and I wasn't super strong, just super fat).  I then took many years off, eventually got down to 192 lbs.  Currently I'm 230 lbs and a purple belt. 

So I've felt the difference in rolling at significantly different weights.  And as shen pointed out, things work differently at different weights.  When heavier, I would hit Americanas regularly, as well as arm triangles and other upper body moves.  As my weight came done, those moves got more difficult as I wasn't crushing the life out of people on the way to a finish.

10 days ago
7/10/09
Posts: 899
shen -
N5Z - 
shen - Because of the strength-to-weight ratio changing as you move up in weight classes, few and fewer moves will work at all.

There are a lot of BJJ sweeps that simply don't work for super heavyweights because they work with a fairly modest amount of leverage and when you get into those top weight players, the opponent's weight supersedes the leverage offered by the sweep. [Again, changes in strength-to-weight ratio, change the game].

You see fewer techniques at the highest weights because so many techniques are, realistically, out the window.The technique is different,it's almost like a different sport --and this is true in all combat sports; there is absolutely "big boy" Judo & "big boy" wrestling and it is DIFFERENT than what you see at lightweight because it has to be.

If you start training 280lbs guys in so-called "good technique" for a lightweight, a lot of it just won't translate. Many times even just the grips and controls common at lightweight, are literally impossible for a 300+lb guy to do on a similarly sized person.

So, Lightweights have appropriate technique for lightweights and super heavyweights have appropriate technique for super heavyweights. Direct comparison doesn't really make sense.

A super heavyweight looks at lightweights rolling and asks, "How come none of these guys can hold any one down? Their pins are terrible --it looks like two roosters fighting." But, again, due to the differences in strength-to-weight, it's a lot easier for lightweights to escape pins and move their opponent's body weight around than it is for super heavyweights to do the same.

Ok, then using your reasoning would it be fair to say "Heavyweights are less technical than lighter weights"?


No.

Lightweights play like lightweights & super heavyweights play like super heavyweights, is what I am saying.

I learned to wrestle in HS at 126lbs.

Many years later, in my 30's at about 230-240, I started to learn straight wrestling again. I was trying to shoot Double Legs, which is the man thing I recall fro H.S. The coach said, "What are you doing? Heavyweight don't do that"

I was like, "Well what should I do?

He taught me to basically walk up to the guy & tie up. Try to dominate the clinch and attack from there. Shooting Double legs,in general, is a bigger risk for big guys than it is for lightweights.

I'm like, "Oh... OK."

I was trying to wrestle like a skinny,fast guy which is what I was in H.S. He taught me about wrestling as a heavyweight.

Different game. Similar with BJJ. Different strategies tend to dominate at different weight classes for a reason.

I feel like we are saying the same thing.  Perhaps you are just saying it better.

 

Like Generic American points out in the post above this one.  At heavier weights there is greater strength, which leads to the first technique you attempt to apply working... because you can power it through.  The less 'powering through' the more you have to adjust, move and transition to the next technique.  The more you have to adjust and transition the greater your skill at adjusting and transitioning.  This is where the learning curve is more steep for big guys, they have to adjust and transition less, hence their skill in doing so grows at a slower pace.

The game is different at different weights, sure.  As you pointed out in your wrestling anecdote, at lighter weight more technique(clinch + leg attacks) are needed as opposed to the limited heavyweight style.  More technique = more technical.

Earlier it was mentioned that the heavies are more adept ie skilled at control.  Im not sure how much of that is skill vs a simple strength advantage.  You can point to heavyweight matches where strength advantage is par but I would say that the majority of heavies are simply not great on their backs because they are rarely there(see previously mentioned learning curve).  Werdum and others obviously being exemptions.  The OP is a good example of that.  Renaldi is obviously very skilled and athletic, nice somersualt pass attempt, etc.  Look at his defense bottom side, not as impressive.