David Jacobs' BJJGround Coach/Instructor vs Training Partner

Edited: 9 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8607
I think having a training partner (or partners) has much greater value than having a legit coach/instructor. That's not to say that a coach/instructor isn't important or doesn't have value. There is only so much a coach/instructor can do for (or better said: "with") you. Unless your coach/instructor is your training partner and does all the drills with you and spars with you, the coach/instructors roll in your development is very hands off and indirect. He watches, supervises, advises but doesn't "engage".

Thoughts?
Edited: 10 days ago
7/10/09
Posts: 903

Ideally, your instructor should be one of your training partners.

Aside from that, after a certain level, call it mid-blue, training partners are exponentially more important imo.  That is assuming your instructor does roll with you from time to time.

If you have a hands off instructor, quality training partners > quality isntruction.

10 days ago
5/30/03
Posts: 41523

No Way....Only at high levels like brown and up is that true.  Top guys like Jonatha are still getting refined and molded by Rafa and Gui at purple belt.  If you think he could have just got up there on his own by rolling, you're crazy imo.  

10 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 1624

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

Edited: 10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 4389

I don't know, I doubt any of the DDS guys are logging roll time with Danaher, but all credit him for their success. 

 

Same goes for Jon Blank and Grace Gundrum over at 10th planet. They credit Zach and JM for their technical prowess and those guys are getting them better through coaching more than rolling

 

A good coach can make you better even with lower level training partners

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 4390

As the top instructors age the idea that they will personally be a rolling partner will have to be thrown away. In no other sport is the coach expected to be going live with the athlete. Jon Smith isn't shooting low singles these days, nor should he be expected to

10 days ago
9/13/16
Posts: 1369
Strangleu - 

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 


this.

most students don't have a coach like danaher and even the ones that do probably aren't getting the attention that someone like gordon ryan would get from the coach.

a good coach is still important but i think that having good training partners is more important.
10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 4392

A good coach will produce good training partners. Good training partners alone will not produce a good coach 

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35051
Brian McLaughlin - 

A good coach will produce good training partners. Good training partners alone will not produce a good coach 


true.
10 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 694
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

10 days ago
10/4/18
Posts: 102
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

10 days ago
4/27/18
Posts: 1625
Sajbjj -
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

Pretty much this

10 days ago
10/21/10
Posts: 13611
Brian McLaughlin -

A good coach will produce good training partners. Good training partners alone will not produce a good coach 

This 

9 days ago
2/15/14
Posts: 695
Sajbjj -
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

why do they do this? BTW Pedro Sauer seminars are basiclly full of shit moves that dont work 

 

I've been lucky,Nearly every gym I've been to teaches practical stuff

9 days ago
10/28/08
Posts: 1954
mideastgrappler -
Sajbjj -
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

why do they do this? BTW Pedro Sauer seminars are basiclly full of shit moves that dont work 

 

I've been lucky,Nearly every gym I've been to teaches practical stuff

I strongly disagree.  But I your expression of this recently changed how I perceive the teaching of others.  Knowing how much I value Pedro’s teaching and hearing your opposing opinion has me reevaluating the teaching I’ve wanted to dismiss as unuseful.  It’s made me want to be a little more careful in finding the usefulness I might be missing.  If that makes sense?

9 days ago
12/26/02
Posts: 11937
Brian McLaughlin - 

A good coach will produce good training partners. Good training partners alone will not produce a good coach 


I agree with this, but I also tend to agree with mg's initial premise.

 

Somewhere in here is the question about WHEN a student improves.  It's not when the instructor tells them a piece of information.  It's when they start actually putting the information into practice (and it continues from there).  So progress only comes during training, and partners are the critical element during that piece. A bad partner can blow up your progress pretty badly.  A great partner can help you accelerate it tremendously. 

To Brian's point, you can't just have good training partners. But doesn't all this talk imply that the most important part of what a coach does is "produce students who are great training partners"?  

This probably means that the coach's priorities are something like (1) keep everyone safe (2) train people to be good partners (3) teach good content ("bjj information").  

Thoughts?

9 days ago
10/28/08
Posts: 1955
twinkletoesCT -
Brian McLaughlin - 

A good coach will produce good training partners. Good training partners alone will not produce a good coach 


I agree with this, but I also tend to agree with mg's initial premise.

 

Somewhere in here is the question about WHEN a student improves.  It's not when the instructor tells them a piece of information.  It's when they start actually putting the information into practice (and it continues from there).  So progress only comes during training, and partners are the critical element during that piece. A bad partner can blow up your progress pretty badly.  A great partner can help you accelerate it tremendously. 

To Brian's point, you can't just have good training partners. But doesn't all this talk imply that the most important part of what a coach does is "produce students who are great training partners"?  

This probably means that the coach's priorities are something like (1) keep everyone safe (2) train people to be good partners (3) teach good content ("bjj information").  

Thoughts?

I can agree with this.  There is some weird place the original post can lead if you aren’t careful when you think about what a coach actually does.

9 days ago
7/5/12
Posts: 2144
Setree - 
mideastgrappler -
Sajbjj -
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

why do they do this? BTW Pedro Sauer seminars are basiclly full of shit moves that dont work 

 

I've been lucky,Nearly every gym I've been to teaches practical stuff

I strongly disagree.  But I your expression of this recently changed how I perceive the teaching of others.  Knowing how much I value Pedro’s teaching and hearing your opposing opinion has me reevaluating the teaching I’ve wanted to dismiss as unuseful.  It’s made me want to be a little more careful in finding the usefulness I might be missing.  If that makes sense?


Yes. Like many Pedro students you're still have a tough time admitting that you're getting fed a bunch of BS. You need to get out more and break free. Good luck.
9 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8608
twinkletoesCT - 
Brian McLaughlin - 

A good coach will produce good training partners. Good training partners alone will not produce a good coach 


I agree with this, but I also tend to agree with mg's initial premise.

 

Somewhere in here is the question about WHEN a student improves.  It's not when the instructor tells them a piece of information.  It's when they start actually putting the information into practice (and it continues from there).  So progress only comes during training, and partners are the critical element during that piece. A bad partner can blow up your progress pretty badly.  A great partner can help you accelerate it tremendously. 

To Brian's point, you can't just have good training partners. But doesn't all this talk imply that the most important part of what a coach does is "produce students who are great training partners"?  

This probably means that the coach's priorities are something like (1) keep everyone safe (2) train people to be good partners (3) teach good content ("bjj information").  

Thoughts?


I think one of the duties of a good coach/instructor is to help the students help themselves.

I think a good coach/instructor needs to "guide" his or her students into skillfulness (hopefully that makes sense).

I think that's one of the reasons Danaher stands out as a coach.
9 days ago
10/28/08
Posts: 1956
The Ghost Of Swayze -
Setree - 
mideastgrappler -
Sajbjj -
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

why do they do this? BTW Pedro Sauer seminars are basiclly full of shit moves that dont work 

 

I've been lucky,Nearly every gym I've been to teaches practical stuff

I strongly disagree.  But I your expression of this recently changed how I perceive the teaching of others.  Knowing how much I value Pedro’s teaching and hearing your opposing opinion has me reevaluating the teaching I’ve wanted to dismiss as unuseful.  It’s made me want to be a little more careful in finding the usefulness I might be missing.  If that makes sense?


Yes. Like many Pedro students you're still have a tough time admitting that you're getting fed a bunch of BS. You need to get out more and break free. Good luck.

 

If you can’t learn something from a man that’s done BJJ for 40 years, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

 

9 days ago
2/5/06
Posts: 3136

Coaches play a big roll in helping students understand the why. Training partners help you figure out how to do things through sparring. A coach will help you understand why and when if that makes sense. 

9 days ago
10/4/18
Posts: 115
mideastgrappler -
Sajbjj -
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

why do they do this? BTW Pedro Sauer seminars are basiclly full of shit moves that dont work 

 

I've been lucky,Nearly every gym I've been to teaches practical stuff

Imo, it’s the instructors that don’t or didn’t compete that teach unrealistic techniques or low percentage techniques, or coaches who don’t really place an emphasis on competition bjj are the ones that usually show weird shit that doesn’t often work in real sparring

 

9 days ago
8/15/07
Posts: 16968
Setree - 
The Ghost Of Swayze -
Setree - 
mideastgrappler -
Sajbjj -
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

why do they do this? BTW Pedro Sauer seminars are basiclly full of shit moves that dont work 

 

I've been lucky,Nearly every gym I've been to teaches practical stuff

I strongly disagree.  But I your expression of this recently changed how I perceive the teaching of others.  Knowing how much I value Pedro’s teaching and hearing your opposing opinion has me reevaluating the teaching I’ve wanted to dismiss as unuseful.  It’s made me want to be a little more careful in finding the usefulness I might be missing.  If that makes sense?


Yes. Like many Pedro students you're still have a tough time admitting that you're getting fed a bunch of BS. You need to get out more and break free. Good luck.

 

If you can’t learn something from a man that’s done BJJ for 40 years, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

 


Ari Bolden has a great limp arm.
9 days ago
9/26/07
Posts: 711

A good instructor will train you how to be a good training partner. This is much more important in my opinion that teaching techniques. 

9 days ago
7/5/12
Posts: 2145
Setree - 
The Ghost Of Swayze -
Setree - 
mideastgrappler -
Sajbjj -
mideastgrappler -
Strangleu -

I think rolling partners are more important than most instructors generally.

If your instructor is there (some arent always), hands on, works in a systematic way through techniques and time(many dont), mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level (another issue with many) then your instructor might me more valuable.

What percentage of schools meet this?

 

what do you mean by  "mostly teaches techniques that work at a high level?"

 

 

That some instructors teach techniques that would never work in a live roll, or if they do work, probably only on someone not that good

why do they do this? BTW Pedro Sauer seminars are basiclly full of shit moves that dont work 

 

I've been lucky,Nearly every gym I've been to teaches practical stuff

I strongly disagree.  But I your expression of this recently changed how I perceive the teaching of others.  Knowing how much I value Pedro’s teaching and hearing your opposing opinion has me reevaluating the teaching I’ve wanted to dismiss as unuseful.  It’s made me want to be a little more careful in finding the usefulness I might be missing.  If that makes sense?


Yes. Like many Pedro students you're still have a tough time admitting that you're getting fed a bunch of BS. You need to get out more and break free. Good luck.

 

If you can’t learn something from a man that’s done BJJ for 40 years, I don’t know what to tell you.

 

 


That's easy. Find a better school and instructor.