David Jacobs' BJJGround Does anyone feel sport bjj....

7/22/19 8:19 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8561
checkuroil - 

Most self defense situations are honor contests to establish a hierarchy on the social ladder.  these are what you guys are referring to here.  You can walk away from almost all of these. 

Bjj is good for these, but only if you know how to recognize them and become the aggressor first.  Many people wait to be the victim in these (get hit first) and then start fighting back.   If you are in an honor contest, strike first and you should be okay 

 

as said above, real self defense is usually a weapons situation or multiple attackers.  They often ambush and don’t give you too many clues ahead of time.  Not too much is good for these with empty hands 


Exactly!
7/22/19 9:20 PM
2/9/09
Posts: 9218
Sgt. Slaphead -
mideastgrappler -
GaspareBJJ -
mideastgrappler -
GaspareBJJ -
mideastgrappler -
robbie380 -
Brian McLaughlin -

I know a sport BJJ black belt that got cocky with a guy at a bar and got put to sleep, there are definitely some folks who over estimate themselves

Speaking to that a black belt cop that trains at our gym had a similar experience.  He was a major guard player and got into an altercation with someone he was trying to arrest.  Shit started happening and he pulled guard out of habit from training and he nearly got knocked out in the scuffle.  He said he completely changed his training after that incident and just reminded us that when shit goes crazy that you revert back to your training habits and you have to train in a fashion that would protect you in a fight.  

that is a result of stupid individual decision making

 

I have a friend who is a cop and former heavyweight pro-boxer. He was a murderous KO puncher during his career. He was making an arrest alone in a bad neighborhood that had a gang of hoodlums around him. As he was cuffing the guy, another challenged him to a fistfight and if they won, my friend would have to let the homeboy off the cuffs and walk free. My friend agreed, fought the other guy one on one. 2 of the frist 3 punches thrown by my friend KO'd the challenger stiff and another guy jumped in and was also immediately KO'd by the next punch thrown. However, 5 more guys jumped on my friend and mobbed him and nearly beat him to death. My friend was hospitalized and unable to work for the next couple months. Should he have changed his training to dealt with this? No, he just made a a mistake in decision making.  I've seen many guard playing officers successfully restrain and take down assailants without pulling guard.

 

Both your black belt cop and my friend are both just f**king idiots at the moment when they were under tremendous pressure

This is slightly different, apples to oranges. You’re talking a 1v1 and someone being jumped. 

yes, slightly different but th root of it all was the same-stupid decision making.

 

Did Ryan Hall choose to Imanari Roll his way into restraining that guy he choked in the burger place? No, he RNC's the guy even though he has probably drilled Imanari Roll a few thousand times by now

Yes but Ryan Hall is also the 1% of 1% who trains everyday. Not a guy with a day job, wife, kids etc.

 

Also stupid decision yes, but sometimes these things are unavoidable. 

The guard pulling cop did a dumb one by pulling guard under stress. At even at the mere hint of an escalation, pulling guard should not have even been in the vocabulary

 

My pro-boxer cop friend did a dumb one by agreeing to fight one guy in mutual combat in a bad neighborhood when the guy had 7 of his thug homies waiting around him. Agreeing to a one on one fight should not have been in the vocabulary.

 

I see your point though

Normal people and not 1%ers can and should train everything within reason. Training sport BJJ, which includes takedowns and restraints conrol should not be neglected at all. Having the common sense to separate them in any given situation should be an intuitive thing

--"Normal people and not 1%ers can and should train everything within reason. Training sport BJJ, which includes takedowns and restraints conrol should not be neglected at all. Having the common sense to separate them in any given situation should be an intuitive thing"

 

Seems to me, the only peolle neglecting a facet of trai ing is the "sport is all you need" crowd.

 

Common sense isnt the issue....defaults, habits, comfort and foundation is. Fpr example, did a little half-cripple randori this morning with one of my partners during morning trainjng. My gripping has a lot of broad application to what i do for clinching and fighting. His was more specialized  and focused for judo. Both work, but for me, not much changes and works well enough for sport/recreation and I get to always practice.things that I will use....indont have to change or adapt.

 

 

As an example I have one training partner who has a pretty damn good lapel guard. He can’t take me down ever (Im lower rank, smaller and train less) and he 100% needs the lapels. Hes completely useless nogi. 

 

No knock on him, but his skillset wouldn’t be my first in the street. Yet he does pretty well in most comps 

7/22/19 9:23 PM
10/8/08
Posts: 2000
had a buddy who train bjj for a while got confident bc he can hold his own on the mats; got brave one day and took a job as a bouncer. he got into an altercation at the job. the perp pulled a knife on him. he got away safe and quit.
30 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 20

I'll agree with you. Most people in general have an inflated view of their skill sets without the correct context of testing. 

 

Anecdotal note. I've trained at 7 respected jiujitsu gyms and a dozen garages.

Maybe only 1 of the bjj gyms trained how to close the distance and do a takedown(other than sloppy tani otoshi). 

Then the main takedown most bjj people know is a bad tani otoshi. 

 

Small world sample, but many bjj people do not know how to close the gap, take a punch(or strikes), how to strike effectively. 

Why? A lot has to do with retaining clients for monetary purposes. 

30 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13638
sounds like boolshet.....everybody know the one bad takedown is the head down, ass up, flailing arms double leg!DO YOU EVEN FUCKING TRANE BRO?!?!
29 days ago
10/25/05
Posts: 9955

Most people who have bad takedowns in BJJ, still are good enough to put an average Joe on his back. Regular  people have shit balance generally. For some reason, people have a hard time understanding people who compete in fancy sport BJJ still have basic fundamentals, and that's all you need. 

29 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13641

Define fundamentals.

What I consider fundamentals seems to differ. Take for examle with my nephews training that I written about previously......zero takedowns, no standing after 4.5mos training, but he was training x or DLR. Lets compare my daughters training in a teens class.....RETARDEDNESS and actually made her ukemi and standup worse, but she liked it because was less hard then judo. I know guys that have trained as long or longer than me and know way more jiujitsu than I will ever know, but never learned what I learned as a white and blue belt....which sadly is really pretty much all l I know..

 

And look at the example of application illustrated in the previously mentioned posts about hinger in this thread or the GJJ thread......successful application of jiujitsu in a fight? If all you know is a takedown to mount or guardpull, etc., is that really "all you need"? Learning ground-grappling is a good skill.....mostly to get the fuck off the ground and how not to be put on it. The rest is just for shit&giggles.

27 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 47593

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

26 days ago
4/1/15
Posts: 1146

Been training for over a decade and the more I train the more realize just how vulnerable I am.

25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13646
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!

24 days ago
2/9/09
Posts: 9274
Sgt. Slaphead -
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!

Haueter is very anti sport, right?

24 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13649
The Closed Guard -
Sgt. Slaphead -
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!

Haueter is very anti sport, right?

i dont kn9w. 2hat is a ti sport anyway. Im an5i-sport only and and anti sport as a foundation

 

24 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13650

or rsther a ti sport as a default  skillset

 

24 days ago
2/9/09
Posts: 9276
Sgt. Slaphead -
The Closed Guard -
Sgt. Slaphead -
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!

Haueter is very anti sport, right?

i dont kn9w. 2hat is a ti sport anyway. Im an5i-sport only and and anti sport as a foundation

 

Care to define “anti sport” as a foundation? 

24 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 47599
Sgt. Slaphead - 
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!


Hall mentioned "untrained" once in the entire video and you go off on this rant? Evidently Sport Derangement Symptom is a thing.  (And you really missed Hall's point)

Note that not once does Hall mention "sport" in the entire video and if you watched the entire conversation, not just the snippette I posted, Hall is very much in the "street" camp.

 

24 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8569
Sgt. Slaphead - 
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!


Bruh... you are full of shit! I'm sorry but it has to be said.

It is clear you have NEVER been in a street fight. I can tell you from my own experience I was able to adjust on the fly when I got into street fights and, at the time, I didn't have a formal martial art or self defense training. The only thing I knew, at the time, was wrestling. The last time I checked, wrestling is a SPORT. It is taught as a sport and it is trained/practiced as a sport. YET, it was my wrestling ability that saved my ass in the so called street.

I have friends who have similar experience. One of my friends, whom I grew up with, had a reputation for fighting in the street. He was a TKD black belt and wrestled for our high school. Two combat sports: TKD and Wrestling. That's all my friend knew. BUT he was more than capable of handling himself in a street fight, which he proved several times. What was his secret... he was able to adjust on the fly. He knew what to expect and what worked in the so called streets. He told the secret to fighting in the streets is "knowing" how to fight in the streets.

It's clear Hall's point of view is way over your head because you LACK the experience he has....

24 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13651

indeed

 

Edited: 24 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 28
mideastgrappler -
GaspareBJJ -
mideastgrappler -
robbie380 -
Brian McLaughlin -

I know a sport BJJ black belt that got cocky with a guy at a bar and got put to sleep, there are definitely some folks who over estimate themselves

Speaking to that a black belt cop that trains at our gym had a similar experience.  He was a major guard player and got into an altercation with someone he was trying to arrest.  Shit started happening and he pulled guard out of habit from training and he nearly got knocked out in the scuffle.  He said he completely changed his training after that incident and just reminded us that when shit goes crazy that you revert back to your training habits and you have to train in a fashion that would protect you in a fight.  

that is a result of stupid individual decision making

 

I have a friend who is a cop and former heavyweight pro-boxer. He was a murderous KO puncher during his career. He was making an arrest alone in a bad neighborhood that had a gang of hoodlums around him. As he was cuffing the guy, another challenged him to a fistfight and if they won, my friend would have to let the homeboy off the cuffs and walk free. My friend agreed, fought the other guy one on one. 2 of the frist 3 punches thrown by my friend KO'd the challenger stiff and another guy jumped in and was also immediately KO'd by the next punch thrown. However, 5 more guys jumped on my friend and mobbed him and nearly beat him to death. My friend was hospitalized and unable to work for the next couple months. Should he have changed his training to dealt with this? No, he just made a a mistake in decision making.  I've seen many guard playing officers successfully restrain and take down assailants without pulling guard.

 

Both your black belt cop and my friend are both just f**king idiots at the moment when they were under tremendous pressure

This is slightly different, apples to oranges. You’re talking a 1v1 and someone being jumped. 

yes, slightly different but th root of it all was the same-stupid decision making.

 

Did Ryan Hall choose to Imanari Roll his way into restraining that guy he choked in the burger place? No, he RNC's the guy even though he has probably drilled Imanari Roll a few thousand times by now

Re- Ryan Hall

I do find it interesting 

1. They turn their back to attempt to ignore the threat

2. Ryan Hall hits a double leg takedown leaving the aggressors hands free

 

Did you hear or read any of his follow up interview?

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/3/21/2887681/ryan-hall-weighs-in-on-sport-vs-street-debate-in-martial-arts

 

Re - Ryan Hall "untrained" 3:55

Roughly-

"If I had to pick one art, and everyone knew nothing...it'd be jj"... 

 

Edit I'm citing Paws posted vid

 

23 days ago
5/17/13
Posts: 12588
m.g -
Sgt. Slaphead - 
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!


Bruh... you are full of shit! I'm sorry but it has to be said.

It is clear you have NEVER been in a street fight. I can tell you from my own experience I was able to adjust on the fly when I got into street fights and, at the time, I didn't have a formal martial art or self defense training. The only thing I knew, at the time, was wrestling. The last time I checked, wrestling is a SPORT. It is taught as a sport and it is trained/practiced as a sport. YET, it was my wrestling ability that saved my ass in the so called street.

I have friends who have similar experience. One of my friends, whom I grew up with, had a reputation for fighting in the street. He was a TKD black belt and wrestled for our high school. Two combat sports: TKD and Wrestling. That's all my friend knew. BUT he was more than capable of handling himself in a street fight, which he proved several times. What was his secret... he was able to adjust on the fly. He knew what to expect and what worked in the so called streets. He told the secret to fighting in the streets is "knowing" how to fight in the streets.

It's clear Hall's point of view is way over your head because you LACK the experience he has....

Wrestling is slightly different than BJJ though. I believe thats actually what bjj is missing. The points of actually getting the fight where you’re most comfortable. 

 

Also I feel like your TKD/Wrestling buddy is a bad example for 2 reasons. 

 

1) He’s training in two different arts one handling the standing and one the ground. 

 

2) you said it yourself he fights a lot and knows what to expect. Id say 99% of your hobby bjj guys don’t fight often and don’t know what to expect. 

 

I really like BJJ but I dont think its an end all be all...especially with such a big focus on the sport and not the SD...

23 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 29
m.g -
Sgt. Slaphead - 
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!


Bruh... you are full of shit! I'm sorry but it has to be said.

It is clear you have NEVER been in a street fight. I can tell you from my own experience I was able to adjust on the fly when I got into street fights and, at the time, I didn't have a formal martial art or self defense training. The only thing I knew, at the time, was wrestling. The last time I checked, wrestling is a SPORT. It is taught as a sport and it is trained/practiced as a sport. YET, it was my wrestling ability that saved my ass in the so called street.

I have friends who have similar experience. One of my friends, whom I grew up with, had a reputation for fighting in the street. He was a TKD black belt and wrestled for our high school. Two combat sports: TKD and Wrestling. That's all my friend knew. BUT he was more than capable of handling himself in a street fight, which he proved several times. What was his secret... he was able to adjust on the fly. He knew what to expect and what worked in the so called streets. He told the secret to fighting in the streets is "knowing" how to fight in the streets.

It's clear Hall's point of view is way over your head because you LACK the experience he has....

I can't believe you're citing anecdotal evidence as a serious rebuttal.

It's a joke right? 

You fought untrained individuals, using small sample as empirical evidence to prove your points. HaHa. Cheers, that must be good alcohol

23 days ago
11/11/11
Posts: 23173
DuffyLaCoronilla -

Been training for over a decade and the more I train the more realize just how vulnerable I am.

I am a bear and 100% agree.

23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8571
Kahunadog - 
m.g -
Sgt. Slaphead - 
paw -

Just going to leave this here

 

 

 

Again......."untrained" is the standard. Do we really want that as the standard?

 

Let's take the average person training 2-3 times a week. If they are focused on improvemnt, which is defined by competition style play, then they are likely mostly skilled in only the ground facet of grappling. In fact we could assume they would SEEK TO GO TO THE GROUND AS THEIR PRIMARY GOAL.

That would mean they have nearly non-existant standup ranging and timing skills. No strategy and tactical appliccation skills. No experience and gameplan to deal with strikes in the ground phase of a fight, must less the standup phase.

The primary goal of SD is ESCAPE. Engaging is the last choice......and going to the ground would be the last choice if you do. So sport jiujitsu would be the SHITTIEST FORM OF SD EVER!?!?!?!?

 

If a person wants to  learn to use grappling to keep from being put down against their will....what does that entail?.....Clinch obviously. But in the case of sport training people don't care if they get put on bottom, and I think we can all agree....MANY WILL SEEK TO GO TO THE MAT INSTEAD OF FIGHT TO REMAIN STANDING OR AT LEAST DICTATE AND BE ON TOP. Also, rarely do people in training actually prioritize disengagement skills, which is very importaant skill for defensive purposes. Being able to clinch and grip, but with an eye toward SD, people should train regularly to control and move their opponent agressively without seeking to take it to the mat. In a defensive sittation this would playout as using a person as an obstacle to others and /or drive a person into, over or through something. So sportive trainning develops the skills, but regualr training applying that skill for defensive purposes and objectives as a default need development.

Chris Haueter talks about his stance....it is his fighitng stance, is his grappling stance, is his judo stance, etc. He isnt going to use the extreme bent over hands down stance.  He also talks about it when he is on his back. So in essense, he always training his default!?!?!? Range/distance and tactical application of jiujitddu technique is very different.....and must be trained to be engrained. Sport only is NONSENSE!

Claiming you will be able to adjust on the fly is NONSESE. Such a philosophy is completely counter to established training doctrines. Look at the example I gave in this thread or the GJJ one about rifle trainning. That is the same as people in TMAs saying if I train my deadly techniques in kata, I can fight......LOL! Jiujitsu has become delusional in the last 20yrs. They've bought into "Zhoozhitsu bes fite inna wirl", but warped its form and still think it applies regardless of the training method. Was Hall able to enter MMA with only sport training, strategy and tactics? But because he was able to fight a drunk in a pizza parlor using sportish skill and technique.....YEA ZHOOZHITSU BES SPORD INNA WIRL!


Bruh... you are full of shit! I'm sorry but it has to be said.

It is clear you have NEVER been in a street fight. I can tell you from my own experience I was able to adjust on the fly when I got into street fights and, at the time, I didn't have a formal martial art or self defense training. The only thing I knew, at the time, was wrestling. The last time I checked, wrestling is a SPORT. It is taught as a sport and it is trained/practiced as a sport. YET, it was my wrestling ability that saved my ass in the so called street.

I have friends who have similar experience. One of my friends, whom I grew up with, had a reputation for fighting in the street. He was a TKD black belt and wrestled for our high school. Two combat sports: TKD and Wrestling. That's all my friend knew. BUT he was more than capable of handling himself in a street fight, which he proved several times. What was his secret... he was able to adjust on the fly. He knew what to expect and what worked in the so called streets. He told the secret to fighting in the streets is "knowing" how to fight in the streets.

It's clear Hall's point of view is way over your head because you LACK the experience he has....

I can't believe you're citing anecdotal evidence as a serious rebuttal.

It's a joke right? 

You fought untrained individuals, using small sample as empirical evidence to prove your points. HaHa. Cheers, that must be good alcohol


Dude... I don't know how else to address this issue.

First off, you are fooling yourself if you think this issue is truly scientific where there can be one answer based on "empirical evidence" that applies to everyone. Seriously... you're an idiot if you actually think that way. How can you prove with "empirical evidence" that combat sport is all one needs to defend oneself in the street? It is something you can't prove with "empirical evidence" MORON.

There is no fucking way that your so called "empirical evidence" can negate my personal experience or the personal experience of others. in fact, my anecdotal evidence totally negates your so called empirical evidence that so called combat sports ALONE doesn't help in a street fight Btw... you and the rest of your clueless friends HAVE NOT PRESENTED ANY EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE REGARDING YOUR POINT OF VIEW OF COMBAT SPORTS (NAMELY SPORT BJJ) AND STREET FIGHTING/SELF DEFENSE.

The only evidence you've presented is CONJECTURE...

Furthermore, I am not saying what I or my friends experienced applies to you or anyone else...BUT it does prove my point for me.
23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8572
I meant to say:

How can you prove with "empirical evidence" that combat sport isn't all that one needs to defend oneself in the street? It is something you can't prove with "empirical evidence" MORON

In other words, you can not say there is empirical evidence that a combat sport (namely Bjj) is complete adequate by itself or inadequate for a so called street fight.

You can make a case either way base on anecdotal evidence but not empirical evidence.
23 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13653

Only in martial arts faggotry would one say they dont need to train the way they fight.  TMAs used to be laughed by BJJers for that nonsense.....but now its sport is all you need dumbassery.

 

I should tell one of my friends who train bjj, etc a d is a LE tactical trainer a d former SF....hey bruh, all you need is sport!

22 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 37

MG

Brilliant personal attack. 

 

Why did Ryan Hall- 

1. Ignore the known threat by turning his back? While remaining seated to a known disruptive threat?

2. double leg takedown the opponent in a street fight? Hes a world class bb. He could've chosen atleast 5 other techniques. 

I love RH material, I love his scientific approach. I do dislike his blinking... hehehe. 

Sport fighting builds incredible attributes for street fighting, self defense and law enforcement. 

 

But sport fighting isn't complete. 

Does sport fighting incorporate knives, clubs, guns and improv weapons? 3rd parties? Obstacles? Vehicles? Most sport fighting do not. 

 

If some random homeless guy attacked you with a machete for parking in his home. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If some drunk frat guy with his 3 friends started hanging on your wife. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If you did a double legged take down near perfect... would his hands still be free? To stab you. To shoot you. 

 

 

You badgered Sgtslaphead. 

You do know people in the world do/did real violence and or consultation of such as their profession? And not just street fight right?