David Jacobs' BJJGround Does anyone feel sport bjj....

8/1/19 7:06 AM
2/9/09
Posts: 9287
Kahunadog -

MG

Brilliant personal attack. 

 

Why did Ryan Hall- 

1. Ignore the known threat by turning his back? While remaining seated to a known disruptive threat?

2. double leg takedown the opponent in a street fight? Hes a world class bb. He could've chosen atleast 5 other techniques. 

I love RH material, I love his scientific approach. I do dislike his blinking... hehehe. 

Sport fighting builds incredible attributes for street fighting, self defense and law enforcement. 

 

But sport fighting isn't complete. 

Does sport fighting incorporate knives, clubs, guns and improv weapons? 3rd parties? Obstacles? Vehicles? Most sport fighting do not. 

 

If some random homeless guy attacked you with a machete for parking in his home. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If some drunk frat guy with his 3 friends started hanging on your wife. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If you did a double legged take down near perfect... would his hands still be free? To stab you. To shoot you. 

 

 

You badgered Sgtslaphead. 

You do know people in the world do/did real violence and or consultation of such as their profession? And not just street fight right? 

“But sport fighting isn't complete.”

 

Thats the thing, most BJJers takedowns SUCK. Yet they’re confident in them.

 

Also, you wanna roll around on the concrete? Or Be rolling around on the ground against multiple attackers. Sounds like a great way to get soccer kicked

8/1/19 2:30 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8573
Kahunadog - 

MG

Brilliant personal attack. 

 

Why did Ryan Hall- 

1. Ignore the known threat by turning his back? While remaining seated to a known disruptive threat?

2. double leg takedown the opponent in a street fight? Hes a world class bb. He could've chosen atleast 5 other techniques. 

I love RH material, I love his scientific approach. I do dislike his blinking... hehehe. 

Sport fighting builds incredible attributes for street fighting, self defense and law enforcement. 

 

But sport fighting isn't complete. 

Does sport fighting incorporate knives, clubs, guns and improv weapons? 3rd parties? Obstacles? Vehicles? Most sport fighting do not. 

 

If some random homeless guy attacked you with a machete for parking in his home. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If some drunk frat guy with his 3 friends started hanging on your wife. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If you did a double legged take down near perfect... would his hands still be free? To stab you. To shoot you. 

 

 

You badgered Sgtslaphead. 

You do know people in the world do/did real violence and or consultation of such as their profession? And not just street fight right? 


Dude,

Personal attack?

HA! You're funny!

The only people who would need a "professional" to consult them about "real violence" are people who live in a bubble and are total isolated from reality.

Unlike people like yourself, I don't need professional consultation about real violence. I, like many people in this world, have witness, lived through, experienced REAL IMPACTFUL VIOLENCE and I'm not just talking just "street fights"...

Catch a clue....
8/2/19 5:19 AM
6/22/19
Posts: 39
The Closed Guard -
Kahunadog -

MG

Brilliant personal attack. 

 

Why did Ryan Hall- 

1. Ignore the known threat by turning his back? While remaining seated to a known disruptive threat?

2. double leg takedown the opponent in a street fight? Hes a world class bb. He could've chosen atleast 5 other techniques. 

I love RH material, I love his scientific approach. I do dislike his blinking... hehehe. 

Sport fighting builds incredible attributes for street fighting, self defense and law enforcement. 

 

But sport fighting isn't complete. 

Does sport fighting incorporate knives, clubs, guns and improv weapons? 3rd parties? Obstacles? Vehicles? Most sport fighting do not. 

 

If some random homeless guy attacked you with a machete for parking in his home. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If some drunk frat guy with his 3 friends started hanging on your wife. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If you did a double legged take down near perfect... would his hands still be free? To stab you. To shoot you. 

 

 

You badgered Sgtslaphead. 

You do know people in the world do/did real violence and or consultation of such as their profession? And not just street fight right? 

“But sport fighting isn't complete.”

 

Thats the thing, most BJJers takedowns SUCK. Yet they’re confident in them.

 

Also, you wanna roll around on the concrete? Or Be rolling around on the ground against multiple attackers. Sounds like a great way to get soccer kicked

The closed guard.

I don't advocate rolling on concrete. 

I advocate training sport fighting to develop certain skills and attributes for fighting. Whether sport or on the street.

My post wasn't clear with that. I was responding to Mg thought process of "all you need to survive in the street is sport fighting."

 

That was in his supportive evidence of an article with a drunk blue belt fighting drunk irishmen. In said article the blue belt mounts one guy and proceeds to gnp. Unbeknownst to him, the downed guys friend decides to hit him from behind. At which point the blue belt gets the other guy with gnp. There's multiple errors in this thought process of reinforcing that winning a fight vs a drunk guy, allow yourself to mount, to be flanked with a seperate opponent, being struck by a second drunk and mounting then gnp that guy.

This thought process of all you need is sport is ironically the opposite of old tma guys who thought all I need is my tma. 

 

8/2/19 5:25 AM
6/22/19
Posts: 40
m.g -
Kahunadog - 

MG

Brilliant personal attack. 

 

Why did Ryan Hall- 

1. Ignore the known threat by turning his back? While remaining seated to a known disruptive threat?

2. double leg takedown the opponent in a street fight? Hes a world class bb. He could've chosen atleast 5 other techniques. 

I love RH material, I love his scientific approach. I do dislike his blinking... hehehe. 

Sport fighting builds incredible attributes for street fighting, self defense and law enforcement. 

 

But sport fighting isn't complete. 

Does sport fighting incorporate knives, clubs, guns and improv weapons? 3rd parties? Obstacles? Vehicles? Most sport fighting do not. 

 

If some random homeless guy attacked you with a machete for parking in his home. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If some drunk frat guy with his 3 friends started hanging on your wife. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If you did a double legged take down near perfect... would his hands still be free? To stab you. To shoot you. 

 

 

You badgered Sgtslaphead. 

You do know people in the world do/did real violence and or consultation of such as their profession? And not just street fight right? 


Dude,

Personal attack?

HA! You're funny!

The only people who would need a "professional" to consult them about "real violence" are people who live in a bubble and are total isolated from reality.

Unlike people like yourself, I don't need professional consultation about real violence. I, like many people in this world, have witness, lived through, experienced REAL IMPACTFUL VIOLENCE and I'm not just talking just "street fights"...

Catch a clue....

 

Re-"personal attack?"

You specifically called me a "Moron"... ? 

Professionals need Professionals to consult them. Whether you're a salesman, psychoanalyst, or etc. 

BUT,

I was specifically referring to military, law enforcement, EMS and fire. Your posts are enough to inform me you're not. 

Maybe you're some well to do kid? 

 

 

8/2/19 5:37 AM
6/22/19
Posts: 41
m.g - I meant to say:

How can you prove with "empirical evidence" that combat sport isn't all that one needs to defend oneself in the street? It is something you can't prove with "empirical evidence" MORON

In other words, you can not say there is empirical evidence that a combat sport (namely Bjj) is complete adequate by itself or inadequate for a so called street fight.

You can make a case either way base on anecdotal evidence but not empirical evidence.

Re- " you cannot say there is empirical evidence that a combat sport is complete adequate by itself or inadequate in a street fight"

Ryan Hall double legged takedown, an unknown belligerent aggressor. 

As far as I know all double legged takedowns involve controlling the legs with both your arms and driving. This leaves your opponents hands free.

That's fine when there's no pockets, belts, holsters with concealed knives, screwdrivers, pistols...

But, even a 12yo female being double legged could put a hole in a person who does such a takedown outside of the mat. 

 

That is fairly clear to constitute defaulting a double legged takedown on the mat, ring does not transfer to the street.

Vs a greco type takedown. 

 

8/2/19 4:13 PM
1/1/01
Posts: 8574
Kahunadog - 
m.g -
Kahunadog - 

MG

Brilliant personal attack. 

 

Why did Ryan Hall- 

1. Ignore the known threat by turning his back? While remaining seated to a known disruptive threat?

2. double leg takedown the opponent in a street fight? Hes a world class bb. He could've chosen atleast 5 other techniques. 

I love RH material, I love his scientific approach. I do dislike his blinking... hehehe. 

Sport fighting builds incredible attributes for street fighting, self defense and law enforcement. 

 

But sport fighting isn't complete. 

Does sport fighting incorporate knives, clubs, guns and improv weapons? 3rd parties? Obstacles? Vehicles? Most sport fighting do not. 

 

If some random homeless guy attacked you with a machete for parking in his home. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If some drunk frat guy with his 3 friends started hanging on your wife. Would you be confident to engage?

 

If you did a double legged take down near perfect... would his hands still be free? To stab you. To shoot you. 

 

 

You badgered Sgtslaphead. 

You do know people in the world do/did real violence and or consultation of such as their profession? And not just street fight right? 


Dude,

Personal attack?

HA! You're funny!

The only people who would need a "professional" to consult them about "real violence" are people who live in a bubble and are total isolated from reality.

Unlike people like yourself, I don't need professional consultation about real violence. I, like many people in this world, have witness, lived through, experienced REAL IMPACTFUL VIOLENCE and I'm not just talking just "street fights"...

Catch a clue....

 

Re-"personal attack?"

You specifically called me a "Moron"... ? 

Professionals need Professionals to consult them. Whether you're a salesman, psychoanalyst, or etc. 

BUT,

I was specifically referring to military, law enforcement, EMS and fire. Your posts are enough to inform me you're not. 

Maybe you're some well to do kid? 

 

 


Yawn...
8/2/19 8:23 PM
6/22/19
Posts: 42
The Closed Guard -

Gives a false sense of security or confidence to lower belts, Purple and under lets say.  

 

I feel like many sport bjj guys are so quick to pull guard, never start with strikes, avoid wrestling etc that all of this changes the game.

 

Im asking because some friends and I were talking and they (blue and purple respectively) were so confident they would win in a street fight against most random people...

 

I know its a very silly conversation to have but they’re both smaller-ish maybe 5’7”-5’9” and 170-175 max.  But by nature they aren’t very aggressive or tough people,  and I personally know their takedowns are terrible. 

 

With that said, I just feel like someday someone is going to have a rude awakening and possibly end up getting really hurt thinking they can handle themselves when they really can’t. 

 

 

Addressing the original post.

Yes, I do believe a lot of trained people that do a lot of sport work are overconfident and ignorant. 

Many miss chunks of critical pieces that could get them hurt up to killed. Some just get lucky. The real obtuse individuals refuse to note their luck and attribute all of their survivability to sport training. 

 

 

 

26 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13667

Came across this again on my FB and thought of 5his thread. Ive posted this and others in various threads.

 

 

 

https://video-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t42.1790-2/20975860_123981044910442_8398711330743255040_n.mp4?_nc_cat=101&efg=eyJybHIiOjMwMCwicmxhIjo1MTIsInZlbmNvZGVfdGFnIjoic3ZlX3NkIn0%3D&_nc_oc=AQn9YKgTJ6r3zyASkmMubAWwykWvKuNS0S5j9s_KVyWIp8eb8lgP8QS05A75zLJh_-0&_nc_ht=video-lax3-1.xx&oh=696d1d8bc686346b5249927381f20a54&oe=5D5E3402

 

 

 

this guy looked skilled.... ut failed to "adjust on the fly" and/or had programed defaults.

 

But im full of shit, never been in a fight and have no idea wtf im talking about. ZHOOZHITSU, BES SPORD INNA WIRL IS ALL YOU NEED!

25 days ago
11/13/09
Posts: 3295

Here's another way of looking at it.  Does sport BJJ prepare you better than nothing?  I would submit that it does.  Does it empasize closing distance safely?  No not really.  Does it train de-escalation, running away and threat recognition?  Nope.  Does it deal with weapons?  Not in the least.  As a 40 year old with 4 kids and a 60 hour a week job is it better than sitting on the couch an becoming obese shell of a man?  Probably so.  I'm stronger than I would be, I have better cardio and I understand what it's like to try to control a full grown man (as well as professional MMA fighters).  As a result of this, I have no desire to tangle with anyone at anytime unless my family's life is in danger.

25 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13668

i have no problem with that.

 

Just just market it as a sport and not for defense....certainly dont make the claim sport "is all you need" either for fighting or defense.

 

16 days ago
3/20/02
Posts: 39479
tf1 - 

Agreed. 

But how would you stop my spider guard?


With my web guard ??
16 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13669

i guess the vid link expired,  u5 ive posted the vid b3fore. It was russia I think, white jacket get stabbed and doesnt kniw it and dies. He was quite skilled....but what were his tactical defaults and faults?...what did he fail at? Why didnt he "adjust on the fly"? His opponent didnt even aggressively punch holes in him. 

 

Bah...who gives a shit! BES SPORD INNA WHIRL!

 

 

 

16 days ago
4/2/13
Posts: 6285

I will defeat the best Martial art in the world with my glock. Period. Edged weapon? Jiujitsu doesn't really stand up.  Multiple attackers? Not the best option.  One on one, no weapons? Jiuitsu is the better option if the opponent is of similar size and doesn't know another fighting system, like western boxing.

16 days ago
4/2/13
Posts: 6286

But yeah, it's definitely better than nothing.  In most of these cases, the ability to think through stressfu9oe uncomfortable positions, will keep you from panicking, and that's what causes most mistakes , panic.

16 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13671
Robobear -

But yeah, it's definitely better than nothing.  In most of these cases, the ability to think through stressfu9oe uncomfortable positions, will keep you from panicking, and that's what causes most mistakes , panic.

"In most of these cases, the ability to think through stressfu9oe uncomfortable positions, will keep you from panicking, and that's what causes most mistakes , panic."

 

^INDEED!

 

The stress factor, physical and mental, are also developed by training method.  IMHO kindler&gentler jiujitsu whereby people are not crushed fails the user under cicumstances of a violent attack. The ability for aggressive action, attack&counter-attack is lacking in many people.....I seen it training with scores of people over the years. For them, the training method must develop that.

Related to that is training to "fight"....I absolutely dont believe that we can get away from the need to train to apply our skills for a fight. No one can convince me, or IMO any thinking person, that one can train one way and just on the fly efficiently do something different under the stress of extreme violence. Like shooting, I am not a gunfighter, but I had a little bit of training to use a rifle in a fighitng manner. My skillset of fundamnetal rifle skills gave me a base, but specific training was required to translate that into a more combative form. Same applies to knife....I was exposed to lots of FMA based training since the 80s.....but much of it is give&take, flow or straight nonsense. Crushing pressure&contact training makes functional skills and techniques. Compare a couple of people I know with FMA experience, one of my regular judo&jiujitsu training partners is dog brother, another friend had lots training under what used to be a good style....night&day difference in ability to apply skills combatively. I know an instructor that has stated with all his past training, at a point he realized he couldn't apply his skill combatively....so when bjjers state I'll train one way and just do this or that in fight, they are the same as the the strip mall karateka that claim they practice deadly katas to be able to fight. Is it better than nothing...sure.

16 days ago
10/25/05
Posts: 10074
Sgt. Slaphead -

i have no problem with that.

 

Just just market it as a sport and not for defense....certainly dont make the claim sport "is all you need" either for fighting or defense.

 

I think some of you need to re assess where you train. 

16 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3620
Animal Mother -
Sgt. Slaphead -

i have no problem with that.

 

Just just market it as a sport and not for defense....certainly dont make the claim sport "is all you need" either for fighting or defense.

 

I think some of you need to re assess where you train. 

I think people need to stop overestimating the fighting abilities of the average fatty walking the streets in the U.S. 

 

At the very least, even "sport" jiu jitsu guys have a good handle on how to control aggressive people, and how to escape from bad situations (e.g., a basic trap and roll). Are all of today's blue and purple belts vale tudo killers? No. But you don't have to be to be able to handle yourself better than 70% of humans walking the street.

16 days ago
2/1/08
Posts: 1625

I never understood the argument that a low level of takedown knowledge is sufficient because even rudimentary takedowns are enough for the average guy on the street.  

 

If that is true, why are we refining our armbars, triangles, and leglocks to the nth degree?  The average untrained Joe doesn't know any sub escapes.  And why are we even bothering training sub escapes at all when our likely assailant probably doesn't know any subs?  

 

If we apply this "eh, good enough" standard across the board, what kind of martial art are we left with?  

12 days ago
6/22/19
Posts: 49
Caladan -
Animal Mother -
Sgt. Slaphead -

i have no problem with that.

 

Just just market it as a sport and not for defense....certainly dont make the claim sport "is all you need" either for fighting or defense.

 

I think some of you need to re assess where you train. 

I think people need to stop overestimating the fighting abilities of the average fatty walking the streets in the U.S. 

 

At the very least, even "sport" jiu jitsu guys have a good handle on how to control aggressive people, and how to escape from bad situations (e.g., a basic trap and roll). Are all of today's blue and purple belts vale tudo killers? No. But you don't have to be to be able to handle yourself better than 70% of humans walking the street.

I think people are under estimating the fighting abilities of the average fatty, the amount of luck required and a number of factors on surviving a serious physical encounter. 

 

A desperate drug ridden homeless guy on a mission for a fix, armearwith a kitchen knife vs an unarmed bb. My money is 50/50. 

12 days ago
5/11/08
Posts: 2072
Kahunadog -
Caladan -
Animal Mother -
Sgt. Slaphead -

i have no problem with that.

 

Just just market it as a sport and not for defense....certainly dont make the claim sport "is all you need" either for fighting or defense.

 

I think some of you need to re assess where you train. 

I think people need to stop overestimating the fighting abilities of the average fatty walking the streets in the U.S. 

 

At the very least, even "sport" jiu jitsu guys have a good handle on how to control aggressive people, and how to escape from bad situations (e.g., a basic trap and roll). Are all of today's blue and purple belts vale tudo killers? No. But you don't have to be to be able to handle yourself better than 70% of humans walking the street.

I think people are under estimating the fighting abilities of the average fatty, the amount of luck required and a number of factors on surviving a serious physical encounter. 

 

A desperate drug ridden homeless guy on a mission for a fix, armearwith a kitchen knife vs an unarmed bb. My money is 50/50. 

I don't think we are underestimating the abilities of the average fatty. In fact, we all know what those abilities are, as that's exactly what makes up the average white belt that walks through the doors of the gyms we train at. We know they suck and generally have no idea what they're doing. 

However, I can agree on the knife thing. I cringe when I watch Rener or Ryron show weapons defenses. I have no idea where you could go to learn proper defense to that other than a gun range or a track meet, but certainly bjj isn't the place. 

12 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3628
Kahunadog -
Caladan -
Animal Mother -
Sgt. Slaphead -

i have no problem with that.

 

Just just market it as a sport and not for defense....certainly dont make the claim sport "is all you need" either for fighting or defense.

 

I think some of you need to re assess where you train. 

I think people need to stop overestimating the fighting abilities of the average fatty walking the streets in the U.S. 

 

At the very least, even "sport" jiu jitsu guys have a good handle on how to control aggressive people, and how to escape from bad situations (e.g., a basic trap and roll). Are all of today's blue and purple belts vale tudo killers? No. But you don't have to be to be able to handle yourself better than 70% of humans walking the street.

I think people are under estimating the fighting abilities of the average fatty, the amount of luck required and a number of factors on surviving a serious physical encounter. 

 

A desperate drug ridden homeless guy on a mission for a fix, armearwith a kitchen knife vs an unarmed bb. My money is 50/50. 

Okay. A hobbyist guy who trains MMA vs an armed assailant...how much do those odds increase on favor of the MMA guy vs if he's a hobbyist purple belt jiu jitsu guy.

 

I'll take the armed guy in both scenarios tbh. 

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 8603
Wow... it is amazing how people who never been in a violent confrontation or who never witness a violent confrontation or live in an area where violent confrontations are common seem to "know" a lot about street violence and violence in the "real" world.
10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 13674

Exactly

10 days ago
3/9/13
Posts: 3633
m.g - Wow... it is amazing how people who never been in a violent confrontation or who never witness a violent confrontation or live in an area where violent confrontations are common seem to "know" a lot about street violence and violence in the "real" world.

Hey, leave Rener and Ryron out of this!!!

10 days ago
1/1/01
Posts: 35052
Caladan - 
m.g - Wow... it is amazing how people who never been in a violent confrontation or who never witness a violent confrontation or live in an area where violent confrontations are common seem to "know" a lot about street violence and violence in the "real" world.

Hey, leave Rener and Ryron out of this!!!


They from the street of Torrance, fool.

You don't mess around in Old Town Torrance. Sh!t be crazy, yo.